Gina mums - How to get baby to sleep thru' the nite?

[pena]

Dear Gina Ford mums,

After persevering for the last 10 weeks, Zach is finally settling into CLB routine. Hooray! However I can't seem to eliminate the 3-4am feed. Have tried a number of things GF suggested. E.g. a) increase feed volume during 7am to 11pm, b) give water & half of 7am feed if he wakes in the night.

It may partially be a HABIT to wake at 3am but he does seem quite hungry when I feed him. As for increasing the daytime feeds, have already raised it as much as possible (don't think I can keep increasing volume as he is already chucking up a bit of what I currently give him). Still each night I go to bed, I keep fingers crossed that he sleeps thru...but alas no!

Would really appreciate any suggestions as I am very tired & exhausted esp. as I have returned to work full time. Should I get the Richard Ferber book?

Yes you can do this IME and IMO but it isn't that easy to achieve... your baby is now firmly use to sleeping well so that shouldn't be a problem.
I have not been able to do it myslef that easily but if you can - go for it !
One of my problem is that when DS goes to nursery he has to get up at 630 anyway... so that's why I haven't really done it. I do understand the pressure of work and the schedule of a baby

OK ladies, guess what? The IRONY - the irony of it all!!!

After my earlier struggles to get ds sleeping thru' the night etc. It is very difficult to get him to shift from 8pm to 8am! Yikes, I've created a breathing alarm clock, more punctual than the trains!

Tried to hold off his bath until 7pm & give his bottle after it. This seems to have helped a bit but he just dropped like a rock at 7.30pm

I warned you !!!!
I wasn'ty able to do it but a friend was...
It isn't easy, some babies seem to be attached to 7 !

Jasper, I've just been v. busy. Yes, the unethical approach is standard, it just particularly disgusts me when its used by manufacturers who claim to care for our babies, and who are also responsible for babies dying in developing countries due to aggressive pushing of babymilk over breastfeeding, and yes, it does still go on. (babymilk action have a website)

Chocolate buttons over broccoli- their instinct is to grab the highest fat-content/carbohydrate containing foods, as these would historically have been scarce. But they also occasionally gorge on broccoli, at least I know anecdotally of many kids who do things like this, and my daughter, who I've fussed over hardly at all, foodwise, seems to have a three day cycle of eating that balances out. There is newish research that says that we can actually store amino acids for three days, not one as was previously thought, so this bears out the three day cycle thing. Any nutritionists got any comments?

I also suspect that sugar can be addictive, hence the advisability of minimising its availabliity, as it could throw any appetitie off balance.

Much as I dislike all baby products marketers - there is a need to move towards a revised & balanced view over pushing formula vs. breastfeeding in developing countries, particularly in light of the raging spread of Aids. HIV positive mums are inadvertently passing on the virus to their HIV free newborns thru' breastfeeding. Get tested then, you might say, if only it were that easy when many societies still attach a huge stigma to HIV especially for a woman, testing is therefore often not an option. So before we decry the entire babymilk industry, note that there is a necessity to actually "push" babymilk in certain parts of the world.

Pena, as I understand it, the risk of babies getting HIV from their mothers in the Third World is much lower than the chance of them dying from illnesses caused by bad water, lack of sterilising facilities and malnutriton because parents can't afford to purchase the amounts of formula a baby requires. The chance of a mother infecting her baby with HIV seems to be very low provided the baby is totally breastfed. Once supplementary feeding/top ups come into play, then the risk rises. I can't see that formula needs to be 'pushed'. We all know it's there - it hardly needs advertising. The Baby Milk Action website has info about this subject.

Friend who works for WHO has told me that for HIV+ mothers to safely breastfeed, the baby must be breast-fed only for 6 months (no weaning). Have to say that I've never met anyone who managed to get beyond 5 months without solids..Many HIV+ mothers breast-feed their babies because of the social stigma now attached to bottles. It is assumed that a mother who bottle-feeds is HIV+ and many women do not want to identify themselves in this way. Unfortunately the attitude of South Africa's president (and influential others0 isn't helping!

I know a few people who have totally bf for 6 mths, one of them until 8mths. Although I introduced solids at 4 mths to my youngest, I'm pretty sure she would have happily been completely breastfed until at least 6mths.

I used to visit an American vegetarian ( I am neither) website where the very vocal posters advocated totally breastfeeding till their babies were a year old. Like all fanantics they believed they were right and everyone else was wrong. I had to stop visiting the site , they were such militant- attachment- parenting- holier- than -thou types.

The research about HIV and bf is ongoing. If you look up the work of Coutsoudis on the web, you'll see that her team finds that exclusive bf to 6 months and exclusive formula feeding have equal rates of HIV transmission. The babies who fare worst are the ones who have partial bf. This (it is speculated) is because giving some formula breaches the immunity protection of bf. Babies who are bf by HIV mothers are at risk of 'vertical transmission' of HIV, it is true, and so are babies who are formula fed (through pregnancy). Because formula feeding brings a whole load of other risks with it, it appears the safest option for mothers who are HIV+ would be to bf without anything else, and this requires a lot of support and confidence everywhere.

This would not be helped by formula manufacturers being given free rein.

I don't wish to sound rude, but the b/f v formula debate re hiv infection is probably not that high on the "discussion topic" list of those people infected - particularly if they are S African. One of my closest friends worked for several years as an A&E trauma doctor in the public health system in S Africa. He has continued to visit the country every six months or so since returning to Britain. His experience is that the rate of HIV infection in the country is beyond anything we in the 1st world can imagine, yet the president refuses to countenance that HIV and Aids are linked. As a result,doctors are unable to prescribe drug therapy (the same drug therapy that the country fought the manufacturers for the right to provide cheaply via the legal system). When a patient arrives in hospital with HIV or Aids they are told that nothing can be done to help them and sent back to their villages. This, in turn, has led to a monumental increase in paedophile rape, because there is a wide spread belief that you can be cured by sleeping with a virgin. This, in turn, has led to a massive increase in juvenile HIV cases. When you are faced with a president who refuses to believe modern science, witch doctors who prescribe the rape of children and a vast number of people so poorly educated (if at all) that they believe it all then the breast feeding v bottle debate pales into virtual insignificance. Yes, it would be good to know what is best for the child, but it really isn't the main problem.

Going back to the exclusive b/f for six months thing. I gave solids to my son just under 4months owing mainly to unrelenting nagging from my MIL and I really regretted it - mainly for being so weak as to give in. It didn't seem to make him less hungry or help him sleep better (which she went on and on about). He wasn't exclusively b/f because I had problems with milk coming in after a c-section and he had formula in hospital. I think if I have another I will really try to exclusively b/f for six months - has anyone happily done this with a big baby?

Was particularly horrified to read a bout a case in S. Africa where a 6m old baby wad brutally raped and sodomised (reconstructive surgery etc) but the doctors were STILL refused permission to give the child drug therapy/anti HIV medication. Seems ridiculous that more can't be done to educate the country's elite, after all, if they believe the quacks what chance do ordinary people have?

Yes Angharad, I was apalled by that too. I have some more info on it I'll post later ( I wanted to donate something to the little girl and to the relevant charities- a pathetic gesture I know)

Thankyou everyone for the info.

Here it is - Treatment Action Group in Johannesberg, contactable through mark Heywood - [email protected]

Hi first time posting a message; had a cclb from day one slept til 7am from last feed at 7 weeks and did GF 7pm-7am from 16 weeks, now just 8 months and has turned into veritable nightmare,came onto the site to see what drugs one would recommend!! Multiple nightime waking, now resulting in so many bad habits: in my bed, drinks, bottle going down, rocking and patting. Hard to stomach, he was so happy , now unpredictable, part must be due to teething. However don't think I have the nerves for cc. Can t seem to get it right, he has maybe 1-2 hrs at midday and then maybe a catnap at 4 or 5 still hanging to go to bed at 7 but then awake at various stages from 12.30 on. Now we've completely changed his sleeping and have tried putting him to bed later, but to no avail, things have gone totally pearshaped and don't know how to resume control.

Hi Luc, sorry to hear things have gone pear shaped, this must be very hard to cope with seeing how your ds was such a contented baby from an early age. Not sure how to advise you really, but I am sure you will get some excellent advice from some of the GF experts here on the site Are you still following the GF routines on a daily basis, certainly in my case my dd started on them at about 9/10 weeks and I stuck pretty rigidly to them until she was about 15/16 months, when I found I could change things round without her sleep going to pot, having said that I think by the time you reach that stage the routines are so engrained you tend to keep following the rituals out of habit. I know it's difficult, but try not to let him sleep too much between 4 - 5 pm, at eight months he probably doesn't really need it, I know it's hard if they are tired, I can remember posting on Mumsnet about my dd because between 4 - 5 pm was always a really difficult time for me from the time she was about 3/4 months until actually quite recently (she is now 22 months). I found she got tired and whiney but I just perserved and accepted that this was her "difficult time" of the day. When things go wrong I think it's very tempting to start tweaking their sleep times etc etc, but from experience I would just try to keep following the GF routines as per the book and hopefully he will soon be back on track. Also, if you think it is teething, give him Calpol or whatever and try to be firm about him coming into your bed, I know cc is hard to do but it may only take one or two nights before he is back into his routine.
Sorry I can't be of any more help, these are just things that I picked up from experience with my dd. As I said, hopefully some of the other GF followers will be able to give you some more advice.
Good luck and I hope things improve for you. Let us know how things go.

Poor you -it must be exhausting. I'd go back to basics and follow the rountine strictly as she recommends for that age group. I seem to recall that at around 6 months GF recommends they drop the afternoon nap. Therefore, definitely drop the afternoon nap - go out for a walk and do something perhaps to keep you both sane! Keep to normal bedtime, make sure your ds has a good feed (plus solids?) before bed. Not sure what you are doing about morning nap? GF says that sometimes night wakings can be too little sleep at right times. (There is some Q&As from her on the site somewhere when she did a guest appearance.)
When my dd got out of her much loved routine due to jet lag on return from hols, we went back to waking her at 10.30 for a while and that worked for us... don't know for you though. Perhaps it would make it worse.
Otherwise, don't try to fix it all in one go. Decide what you will fix today (eg no nap at 4pm) and then give that a day and then try the next thing, eg extending time between wakings at night. Good luck and let us know how you go. If all else fails, I hear that GF will give phone advice (someone on the site has done that) Don't know if that would be within your budget or how desparate you are.

thanks for taking the time , decided today to completely go back to basics and GF him all over again. Everything else is fine, I even followed GF weaning guide and he s an absolute animal for food. I ll keep you posted, it was just nice to get it of my chest. Hopefully things will get better-ill let you know.

Sorry to resurrect an old thread which pretty much covers everything on sleeping through the night! I think I have read it almost as much as CLB - it gives me the incentive to perservere. Anyway I seem to be going through almost exactly the same as you two Manna and Pena - DS now nearly 12 weeks old and being very erratic with his sleep haven't needed to feed in night for two weeks (still not sleeping through but would settle for a little cuddle)with a couple of 6ams thrown in to keep me going! Last two nights I have had to feed him at 3am again as he screamed the house down - growth spurt?

Anyway reason for the resurrection is Manna/Pena if you are reading this I would love to know how your DSs are doing now and when (or if!) they did start to sleep through the night consistently and if you think it was worth perservering with GF even when things got really tough?