Misery loves company: riding the mo fo out into Part II

[ElphabaTheGreen]

In our last exciting instalments:

Needles was at breaking point with a screaming 10 mo DD

Hear had experienced the magic of ONE unbroken night!

Dreaming was continuing to confound all with her ability to manage three children on four or five minutes a night, thanks to DT the Terrible.

Stitch was still having her sleep eaten by...erm...Stitch.

Poppy was pondering how the actual fark she was going to manage a newborn on top of BabyAmex's night time shenanigans.

And the desperate Elphaba had turned night duties entirely over to DH with mastitic results.

Join us with your stories of misery and woe in this, the most sleep-deprived corner of MN!

Hear sorry to hear about your Mum

Sadly there are some people who either are very lucky with good sleepers-nothing wrong with that until they start rubbing it into your face- and complete twats who enjoy talking shit only to make you miserable.

Elph good luck with the sleeping programme!Actually I could hug you for the last post as we thought about moving DS to his room this week when his bed comes,never thought about getting him used to the room.

Bees DS used to wake less since I stopped BF as there was nothing coming towards him-i think the little brat enjoyed the comfort of king size bed instead of being cramped in his cot.Then the teething started again so here we go...

DH took DS to MIL so having empty house and I don't know what to do with myself.Currently baking the cake in the oven and trying to determine whether the oven is broken-2 last cakes went to the bin.

This top of the website dragging down is driving me bonkers-I can't see any earlier posts,grrrrr!

Bees - night weaning did reduce my DS's wake ups, but I didn't do it until he was a year old. I wouldn't have done it when he was as small as yours. I know various books say babies don't need night feeds from four months onwards, but I can't say I agree. Even when DS was well into solids, he was still having proper, full feeds two hourly at night. I was back at work full time by the time he was eight months, and he wouldn't take expressed milk in any form at nursery, nor would he drink much during the day. I'm sure some guru would have said that if I'd refused him the night feeds he'd have drunk more during the day but I can guarantee that DS would have keeled over from dehydration rather than relinquish the night boob at that stage. He's a stubborn little so-and-so.

Yesterday's play session in his room resulted in him climbing onto his bed spontaneously and even lying down on it for a nanosecond. I refuse to get hopeful, however. I refuse. I can't cope with any more disappointment.

Elphaba. Thanks, I agree really. Especially as I am feeding two. Just waiting it out. Sounds like a step forward for u. If it helps my brother was a nightmare sleeper a baby, but as a toddler used to lie by his cot and ask to go to bed!

Up at 5 today after being up with one or the other every hr! Aaah!

elph, I'm hopeful for you! Sorry, I am really struggling to find time to mn. Tragic, truly. Anyway, though I may be a lapsed vege and less hippie than some on hear, I do believe in the gentle parenting ideas. No discipline, no rewards/ bribes. Emotion coaching etc. I'm not marvellous at it can't resist the odd bribe but I've read "peaceful parent, happy kids" which is Laura Markham (of the aHa! Parenting website) and it works so much better than what I was doing before, especially for Dt1. I think the sleep consultant will be a good thing, and I may ring her myself!! My Dt1, as well as the reflux and food intolerances, was very shocked at birth. Elcs at 37+6, he wasn't breathing on delivery but was breathing independently within two minutes with bag and mask resus only. I wonder if that could affect him too?! He was always with me though, was put on my chest in theatre once he breathed :) Good luck, good luck!

bees, another who has had improvement with night weaning, but only in one twin. Never needed to with the other, if he wakes he still gets milk and they're 2 in April!! The Guilt. Doesn't go. I still feel bad that Dt2 does the worst of my three for attention :(

Sorry, that should have said night weaning, but older- I did it at 17.5 months bees. One twin often slept through by then though . In fact, the twin thing I find most upsetting is that because Dt2 is calmer, more chilled, less demanding than Dt1, from boob weaning on, so 17.5 months, Dh has gone to him in the night so now he won't have me at night, cries for daddy not mama. Both others have always called for me, always :( I see it as him feeling less of a bond with me. However, they LOVE each other, give each other any snack I hand out first before eating their own, play wonderfully sometimes

Anyway, they exhausted me but had a whale of a time in the park today. better than yesterday, different park, lost one!!!! Dd whizzed off on her balance bike. I started off ok, got boys in buggy, half strapped each, nipped round the corner expecting to see her. No joy. Fully buckled boys in as Dt2 leaning out kamikaze style, running like a crazy fool, ended up asking about 4 people before someone had seen her- in a different area of the park. Fright. Of. My. Life. Must get on with the bedtime push now as Dh will be late home.

Actually, I just remembered all the trauma of stopping bf, and we lasted a month night weaned, then started giving bottles of almond milk overnight. Ridiculous. But three months on, things were better

I agree with the others that night weaning did help eventually but it isn't an easy fix. I weaned dd completely at 18 months. She was great about it in that she barely asked for it and didn't really cry at all after the first evening but we did go through a period of feeding her bread and humous at 2am as she would wake up hungry. It took a good few months for things to settle down properly.

Sounding good so far elph I am making notes for the house move and new bedroom. Currently dd is mainly really excited that she will be able to have a paddling pool ('like Kipper!') in the new garden.

Well he voluntarily lay down on his bed with me during story time this evening and let me read a whole book to him. He's starting to go straight to his room now every time we go upstairs. I've got another chat with the sleep consultant tomorrow. I'm guessing next step is going to be to put bath before story time, so he then has books in his room before bed so he gets sleepy in there. He did used to have one book in his room after bath and before bed, but he began to associate it with being put in his cot, so it got to a point where he would let me read him the book, but not put it down as he knew that mean getting into the cot. As soon as I'd put it down, tantrum would ensue, so I chucked it in altogether. I shall keep you posted on next steps.

Dreaming Did the barium swallow happen on DT the T?

Oh, did I not report? Fucking disaster. Child so distressed, sobbing for a drink for hours beforehand, it was totally abandoned, he wouldn't do any of it. What a waste of a consultant radiologist and two radiographers time, not to mention the trauma for Dt the Terrible. And us. We will not be trying again.. anyway, in breaking news, he's going whole weeks with NO VOMITING :) . It's lovely,am totally getting used to it already. Omeprazole rocks.

Fucking pregnancy insomnia…
DS snores like a pig on my pillow.
Bastard teeth how fucking long will you torment my boy?

Went to funeral of a friend yesterday,felt so shite that I didn't keep in touch and now it's too late…

Except that everything's fine (mostly)

Hello!

Elphaba this sounds good to me? Do you feel positive? Talking to a friend yesterday who's little one doesn't sleep and she pointed out that with a reasonable sleeper you have the energy to make changes, where as much harder for us not to revert to doing anything to get some sleep! Keep letting us know the progress.

Dreaming that sounds horrific. My husband took omeprazole when he was having chemo so it is very effective anti emetic, glad it is working! I def feel one twin gets more attention but my mum pointed out that this might change and the other might need more as a toddler or teen so it will all work out in the end. Plus being fair is about meeting each ones needs rather than treating them the same. Are yours frat or Id?

Bald. Hugs. My dh is abit of an insomniac and after helping with babies at one he didn't sleep til four. Not helpful as I need him to get reasonable sleep to help me! Sorry about your friend.

Have managed to stop the early waking the last few days by putting in later bed time and but pushing out the time they were awake for this am they have taken a two hour nap at the same time this morning! If I wasn't on the iPad I would have put the all in caps!! Whoop! Ok so I was up ten times in night and we had a cot party at three but still! I think one woke at six n shouted but I must have gone back to sleep and so must they as next thing I knew it was seven!

Thanks for all the feedback on night weaning, I don't want to do it, just wished one twin didn't want boob every two hours, I know it's habitual but he screams blue murder if I don't. Try the pantley pull off but I swear he is asleep huge whole way through the process.

It's a beautiful day here so feeling positive and sending sunny vibes to all.

Xxx

Yup - advice was to put books after bath which I did tonight fairly uneventfully. She was chuffed to bits at DS stroking his bear to sleep, getting on his bed voluntarily and lying down with me for a book, which he did again tonight. She was also very happy with the 'added bonus' I threw in last night of putting bear to sleep in DS's bed (in DS's presence obviously) then taking DS in this morning to 'wake' bear up. We did that again tonight after books. Unfortunately, DS seemed horrified that I was going to leave bear to sleep by himself so whisked him into the front bedroom where we sleep and lobbed him onto the bed After a little bit of a tussle, bear got put to sleep in DS's room, with a plug-in night light on.

Other suggestions for next phase:

• incorporate a Gro-clock into DS's bedtime routine ('ooh! Look at the stars! Time for sleeps' etc), even though he's not technically going to be able to grasp its intended purpose of keeping a kid in bed until a certain time just yet. Gro-clock order duly placed on Amazon.
• play white noise all night in the bedroom where we currently sleep with a view to moving it into his own bedroom when we get to that stage of the plan so when he wakes slightly, the noise is enough of a reassurance to send him off again. May need to buy some kind of white noise device. I have a white noise app on my phone which I practically wore out when he was a baby (best 69p I ever spent) but I'm not sacrificing my iPhone to lie by his bed all night. Some times you just need to check Facebook at 2am.
• she has suggested starting his bed time routine earlier, but I honestly don't think DS can get to sleep any earlier than he does now, especially if he's had a long nap at nursery. If I try and get him asleep for textbook 7pm, he bounces around like a maniac for over an hour. Aim for 8pm, and he'll be asleep (usually) within 10 to 15 minutes. We'll just have to see how he goes.

Bees I'm quite actively trying not to feel positive, as I've put DS through so many horrible things to get him to sleep, started feeling positive, only to be right back at square one again, bitterly disappointed and guilty.

I shall continue to keep you posted. Even if my hopes are once again dashed, maybe one of you lot will get my £250 quid's worth

elph, I'm starting to think I need to Do Something like you. I realise DT the T is only in his boxroom bedroom for bedtime. Almost nothing for children in it. Just bought him a dinosaur duvet and cheapo dinosaur wall stickers from Wilkos. Bedtime is improving slightly but still goes- all up and in the bath. Add in splashing, pushing, arguing over the SAME THREE, SAME COLOUR pots (old weaning food pots) in the bath. Spend time filling various containers with water and spilling all over the bathroom floor. Various rounds of 'eeny meen miny mo' to determine who has to get out first. Wrestle boys out first, plonk on backs on a towel, plug into bottles of respective almond and soya +1 milk. Ensure no swapping. Persuade DD out. Apply nappies. Try to avoid boys' pajama arguments. Try to help DD into pajamas the right way, while DD demands to 'do it myself, all by myself with NO HELP!!!' (shouted, natch) Try to persuade all three from tanking round upstairs and jumping on beds. Forcibly brush all sets of teeth- only DD compliant. Books. Boys rough play throughout. Hopefully DH home by now (7:30ish) DH tries to settle DT2. DT2 howls and howls in outrage. DH gets more bloody milk EVERY. SINGLE. NIGHT. Will not persevere with putting him down without. I tuck DD in, take DT the T. Wrestle him into bed. Put his CD on ( i got sick of white noise, he has rainforest CD now) Try not to lose patience. Leave room briefly to screams of anguish and abandonment before I lose my reason. Re-enter. DT the T accepts a cuddle (but has finally dropped his second ridiculous bottle in bed). He is now falling asleep with arms wrapped around my neck . I know this needs serious improvement, but its so hard as I just lose control.... DD has/had a gro-clock, but because our bedrooms are so tiny it lit up th whole room, way too muc, Plus went faulty, and didn;t keep the time, so I've unplugged it. Maybe I could try it for DT the T. He knows its bedtime though, DD likes him to switch off her bedside light, he says goodnight to everyone... Hand over what I should do next elph and I'll slip you a tenner

bees, I hope it does all even out. I jus feel bad he may notice now, and feel less important/loved etc etc which is obviously not the case. I have read too much about how crucial their bonding and feelings of self worth are in the first two years of life. Still, nearly over for mine, maybe I can relax then?! Honestly, I was in the pit of hell at the age yours are now. I met a twin mum at a soft play, when DD was 27 months, boys 9 months, DH and I on the edge of insanity. She was SO lovely. Came over and said how are you doing? Her boys were ID. We said 'tired, and a bit dispirited' and she cheerfully told us the hell would start to end at 18 months, and to grit our teeth til then- she had dreadful sleepers, though hers were ex prem, and a refluxer too. In hindsight, for us at least, she was right. Though personally, I think everythign got miles better when mine finally cheered up when they could walk- so 12 and 14 months for them for us. Such a relief. Having less miserable babies in the day helped, even though DT the T was still up 2 hourly til 16 months (after Paeds appt, new meds, full exclusion diet magic happened!). My DT2 looks like DD. Nothing like DT the T (frats, 100%!). DT the T is a petite blonde. DT2 is a ginger-fro'ed tall boy. I'll put a pic up (LOVE seeing the other non-sleepers, come on guys, its that time again!).

Last night, DT2 up 4-6am, DT1 and DD both got up 5:55. FFS. DH did most of 4-6am, as if I even get out of bed for a wee, DT1/DT the T comes too He wakes if i roll over, never mind leave the bedroom

I've put some photos of my lot on my profile

BTW blad, teething is a ridiculously stupid process. Ended bloody late for my DD, she was a late teether, so I dread to think...

Dreaming Sleep consultant raised again today that birth trauma is a common theme among troublesome sleepers, and DT the T had just that. I couldn't even begin to extrapolate on her advice to me to apply it to managing three - I have the luxury of giving DS undivided attention through this whole process. The only thing I would say is jib the bottles of milk altogether. They're too old and it will knacker their teeth, especially if DT the T gets more after brushing his teeth, and you've said before they're only juice drinkers at other times. Can you do the old offering water in a bottle until they lose interest? Or offer milk in sippy cups instead as it's probably the comfort of sucking DT the T is still after, rather than the milk necessarily? I leave cups of water within reach for DS around the house to help himself when he wants it. If he wants milk instead he asks for it (by trying to open the fridge door and looking aggrieved when he can't). He gets given milk or water with meals, and that's it. I don't give him a routine bedtime 'milk feed' or anything, not since giving up BFing. If he wants a drink after teeth brushing, it's water only. He helps himself to the pop-top bottle of water I keep for myself on the bedside table.

On the other hand, you've got to do what you can to cope, especially with three, so again I'm here dishing advice from my lofty only-child perch!

I got a great photo of DS t'other day and my first thought was 'that needs to go on MN' I'll get onto it tomorrow.

It's true about the bottles. Very true. The most ridiculous thing about it is that neither took a bottle til 18 months, and we gave one to Dt the T because he found stopping bf so traumatic, so it was for comfort. DT2 cried for one because his twin had one. Now, DT the T would give it up happily. DT2, who never needed it in the first place for comfort to stop bf like DT theT is addicted . Won't quit it. I've bought various non spill beakers as we only have tommee tippee ones for all three normally (or normal plastic cups). DT the T is fine and will drink from any, but wants his milk. DT2 won't drink from them and cries for his milk. I don't actually care if he drinks any, as he eats soya enriched dessert and yoghurts etc. DT the T however eats no green leafy veg, no dairy, obviously, so its his only/biggest source of calcium. DH isbeing hopeless with DT2 and giving milk after teeth, I redo teeth for DT the T if I gave milk after teeth, so did teeth in his bed straight after the bottle. I will have another no bottle push. [groan] . It needs to be non spill because its so easy to lie them down with milk as they stay still, otherwise I end up chasing them round trying to get them into bed after the bathm when really I want to try and calm the atmosphere down (its so, so far from calm- not me, I stay calm, them and their haring about is not calm/calming...). DD has water for overnight by her bed. This week I have tried just water in beakers between meals, saving squash for meals. Not because of teeth, but to get DT the T properly thirsty (as he won't drink just water!) for teatime to take the omeprazole. It's very hard to give otherwise. food/drink is my weakest parenting area by far. I do also do too much to make my life easier as I'm tired and its bloody busy with my three

will look forward to photo of your DS

OMG Dreaming ! Just had a look at the pics, pic 2 , please tell me the one in stripey top is the Terrible one! Pure mischief and innocence written all over his face! Must upload DS's pics!

bald, you're right . He is a little Imp.

Hello ladies.

I don't know how to add pictures nor see other, help?!

Elphaba I understand, I can see it is hard for you to be positive. I suppose best just to focus on each step without thinking you much about the next one. I guess this is where the sleep lady helps, she does the long term thinking and you just enact each part. Interesting idea bout birth trauma. I had an emergency c after three day failed induction. I def think that that plus the fact that they were conceived via IVF due to husbands cancer and post two miscarriages left me so anxious that they would die, so I haven't ever really been able to leave them to it if that makes sense. Obvious I wouldn't have wanted to let little ones cry, but found it hard to hear even a peep. Also they had weight gain issues so I was told to wake n feed all round the clock every three hours for quite a while.

Dreaming. I don't know how you do it with another child, it all sounds pretty stressful to me so hugs. Mine are frat too. I agree that the first few years are important, and my mum who said this to me is a child psychotherapist so definitely believes this! I think her main point was that each child has their own needs and spending more time with one is not necessarily neglecting the other, it might be exactly what they need. Hope that helps. I am not a twin but my brother is only 16 months younger than me and was much more needy, and I am fairly well adjusted...I think!

Got my husband to give wakey twin a bottle at 9.30 last night and he had a really good night sleeping three to four hr stretched until 5 when he did monster poo and was then unsettled. Other twin sleeps fairly well, but then seems to want a cot party at 3am! Any ideas how to stop that?

My husband took yesterday off so I could catch up on sleep and I just couldn't sleep! I think I have a bit of a control issue as I just worry about what he is doing with them even though I don't really have it right! Madness.

Bees xx

Right - my photo of Little Liberace added

Bestbees You add photos via your MN profile. You need to do it on the full desktop site rather than the app (or, as I like to call it, the 'Crapp' coz that's what it is) or the mobile site. I've made mine visible only to my Mumsnet Mates (so you lot) which you can also set up in your profile.

So, now Ann the sleep consultant has said that while I'm still co-sleeping from bedtime, I need to start moving away from him while he goes to sleep so he stops becoming so reliant on my hair. So far so good - I sat up in bed next to him last night while he went to sleep. He lunged up a couple of times to grab my hair but I was able to lie him down again without much grumbling. He was, however, plastered up against me with fists full of my barnet by 2am. She subscribes to the theory of 'the way they go to sleep initially is the way they'll go back to sleep for the rest of the night'. Can't say I ever have, since DS self-settled beautifully at the beginning of the night from age 12 months to 21 months. Didn't stop the 1.5-2 hourly wake-ups thereafter where he required sight of and hefty intervention from mummy for longer and longer intervals each time.

She also wants me to make DS's bed time earlier because she also subscribes to the theory that toddlers need 11-12 hours per night between pretty set times and a 1.5 to 2 hour nap. Can't say I agree with this either - I think some children need less sleep and some more, just like adults. DS bounces around like a fiend if he goes to bed any earlier than he does now, only to fall asleep at exactly the same time as if he'd been allowed to play for longer. It's even worse if he naps for longer than an hour in the day. She's agreed to let me keep it at his usual time for now.

Anyways, I'll (mostly) smile and nod. For now

Bees and Dreaming how the heck you manage with twins goes beyond my senses.A friend of mine has twins and although they are quite young and seem to be very laid back the amount of waaahwaaahwaaaah is sometimes overwhelming.

Bees I've got the same about sleep-I work p/t nightshifts,DS goes to a friend so I could get some sleep,I still wake up when I could have some uniterrepted sleep,gah…

Dreaming teething is a bastard,it's "just" his canines coming through but I dread to think what happens when his molars want to come to the surface…

Elph some of the theories of the sleep consultant are interesting-especialy one about traumatic labour and connection to sleep pattern.I'd never in a million years think about that.As for amount of sleep-I think you're right,DS seems to think that sleeping is a waste of time when there's so many things to explore.How are you doing anyway?Hope you're not feeling too rough.Had a look at the pic-lovely looking cherub but how comes the ones with the best looks are the most diabolic ones?

DS's bed came this week,mattress is absolutely fantastic,he bounces on it like mad.Bed frame is not assembled yet due to lack of time from Dh-long working hours and lack of space-just started to clear the room from all the clutter with my lovely MIL who helped me lots.

Right then,I'll better go-working the next tonight so that's my weekend!

Posted some pictures of my Mr Havoc if you want to have a look.

Hi all. Just a quick one. We finally completed on the house purchase. Yay! So spent the last couple of days stripping wallpaper and painting. Moving on Monday and want to have dd's room all finished.

bald canines were the worst by far for dd. She was a terrible teether but molars were a breeze in comparison to the canines.

elph I am a bit sceptical about your consultant's assertion about sleep times as well. On a good day dd comes close. Maybe 10.5 hours at night and 1.5 nap. But any more then that at nap time and she won't settle and is then up at night so ends up having less sleep over all. I think we might need to drop it to an hour soon as bedtimes are getting worse and worse recently.

We are nowhere near that amount of sleep. Think 8pm to 6am with one 60 min daytime nap. Multiple night wakings, but touch wood, mostly brief atm. Except freaking Dt2 has been waking at 11, 2, 4 and 6!!! Poor Dh has been dealing with him due to the ridiculous situation of Dt the T waking up if I move and go to Dt2 then going batshit crazy if Dh goes to get in bed with him and try to sleep while I see to Dt2. Any advice guys, its awful. I feel so guilty that Dh is up more than me and working while i am at home with the dc :/

Btw, gorgeous, gorgeous non sleeping babies/toddlers elph and bald . Look like butter wouldn't melt loving the pics :)

Right - sleep chat today with Ann the consultant. I am writing this from the comfort (?) of my air mattress back on DS's floor.

He is now happily having his bath, walking himself into his bedroom where he sits on my lap and gets read to, then will climb into his bed himself and lie down under the covers of his own bed while I lie down next to him and read him one last book. Heretofore, he has stayed there for one second, maybe two, after the light goes out and I'm not lying there anymore, before seizing Bear, stuffing him into his bed, while announcing, 'Sleeps!' then charging through to the front bedroom where we sleep, the falling asleep in 'our' bed, with me sitting up on the edge of the bed nearby.

Ann and I felt it was appropriate to start stage two which is basically good old gradual withdrawal. So we got up to having the last book in his bed and he smelled a rat and leapt up and ran to the door (which has a stair gate fitted now - we play in his room with it shut to make sure he's happy enough with it there). After some slightly irritated pacing between door and bed, pointing at me, and out to the other room, saying, 'Go! Sleeps!' he eventually let me pick him up, lie him down, and he was asleep in about two minutes. I will qualify this extraordinary, unfussed phenomenon by saying he has had no nap today and has spent the entire afternoon sprinting around the back garden (after being sent home sick from nursery...). I am expecting more of a battle on subsequent nights when he has had more sleep and less exercise.

It also remains to be seen how many times he wakes up tonight, now that he hasn't got mummy and her hair on the pillow next to him...