Sleep Nightmares Part III: At 3am No-One Can Hear You Scream

[CountBapula]

I've been moaning about documenting my 8 mo DS's 'challenging' sleep patterns on MN since he was three weeks old. He's still waking every 2-3 hours at least and the other thread's full, so here's a shiny new one for all you parents of hardcore sleep refusenik babies.

Who's with me?

awww. LOVE 60 minute makeover. Especially wonder how the inhabitants of the house manage post-do when they have to move between shabby rooms and massively over-decorated rooms.

I digress. Currently sleeping is bad (DD requiring to be held ALL night). But napping is good - circa 3 hours a day and some without motion (although still in the pram). Suspect good naps are a result of bad nights though so not counting any chickens.

DD also seems to have stopped feeding to sleep which I find extremely annoying, especially in the 'who can settle her fastest and get back to crap telly stimulating conversation with DP competition.

nethuns I'm in Beijing.

bigkids how on earth did you hug in the Cot? This would take serious contortionist moves on my part but didn't think ours is unusually high sided.

count I felt the same about feeding to sleep but the problem is it can take anywhere between 2 and 20 minutes and then she wakes screaming 20 minutes after that. So she isn't sleeping for any length of time anyway, it makes reflux worse and I'm exhausted by it.

Last night didn't go so well. She woke every 5 minutes between 10:40 and 11:10. She then slept 40 mins. I then brought her into our bed but didn't feed her until 4:30 and then until 7:30. So not a perfect night but at least we both slept and we didn't feed to sleep!

Well done Comrade! yes, DS used to do the same, he'd never sleep longer than 20 minutes if fed to sleep during the day. No idea why he's going for longer now

OK night here. Down at 8:30. Woke screaming at 12:30 and would only accept boob. Then woke 'blah blah blah'-ing to himself at 4:45. Feeding him now so we can hopefully all go back to sleep for a bit ...

There are a couple of positions for the mattress in our cot bed, and it's on the highest, so not far below the surface!

We just had an amazing night apart from being awake from 1-2.30. Hurray!

Really pleased to hear some of you had good nights
We had probs one of the worst nights yet. Ds went to bed at 7.30pm and took almost an hour to get to sleep. Then either me or dh were upstairs every 20 mins until dreamfeed at 10.15pm. Ds slept quite well until 1pm and then he cried and was unsettled for the rest of the night. We have a 3 sided cot on the side of the bed but even cuddling did not really settle him! I've just cuddled him to sleep for his first nap - took 20 mins to get him to sleep and he usually takes less than 5 mins to go down for his naps. He's 4 months next tuesday and is having his 2nd lot of jabs today (these are late due to antibiotics in the first few weeks).
Hoping this is just one bad night and not start of 4 month sleep regression!

Snarfle, poor you. It is knackering.

Thanks for the welcome. Yes, Zen acceptance is the way forward for me, CountBapula!

I am quite happy to feed to sleep, especially for naps and even at bedtime. IF HE WOULD ONLY STAY ASLEEP FOR LONGER! Anyway, ususlly he nods off again very quickly so that is good. I have friends who feed to sleep and only have 2 or 3 night wakenings - sometimes none. lucky bastards

Not too bad (for us) last night. I honestly do not know how often he wakes as I don't count. It is too depressing. We co sleep so it minimises disturbace for me. If he sleeps for a couple of hours in the evening (which he usually does), then I feel like I have a break and I can cope.

Comrade did you used to be known under another name?

We had another ok night last night thankfully. Frustratingly had to wake him up in the morning for the second time in a row ? why does he never do that on a weekend??????

snarfle sorry to hear you had such a bad night, hopefully tonight will be better.

I've booked a millpond consultant - bit nervous and excited. I feel I can guess what they'll suggest but will be nice to have a plan. It's also hopefully going to be the prompt we need to get DH more involved again. I'm trying to prepare myself for the crying though.
Really can't go on though. Was sitting crying in my car in a Tesco carpark yesterday while DS slept in the back. Had been talking to some other mums who unintentionally made me feel like it was because I was still BFing - knew I was just being irrational due to tiredness though. Think it's going to get worse before it gets better. Can't imagine how i'll cope if I have to stop co-sleeping. I had a bad night too snarfle - it's soul destroying.
I think consistency is the key though so hopefully a plan will help. Fingers crossed - hoping to start this weekend.

It?s not bfing I promise! My friends DS is ff and he has always slept as badly as my DS!

I know - was just feeling sensitive. Just was feeling like I was doing everything wrong - sure everyone has days (amd weeks) like that.

not bfeeding, they are just all different, some are blessed with sleepers and some of us are not, its the temprement of the child honestly.

out of my 5 i have had ONE amazing sleeper and he is three anda bit now and still pretty good! and now we have dd, who is not too bad, depending, we co-sleep, she feeds twice a night and needs the dummy plugging back in (ff fed so that hasnt made any difference) i feel that ds4 thoroughly spoilt us as the lack of sleep this time is killing me, but it WILL PASS.

AND today i got dd and ds4 to have a nap at the same time, 3:30-5:30 two hours sleep on the sofa for me, well i dozed really, but quite frankly i dont care it was sleep! and i cant normally do it as i have school run etc, but they had clubs and then a friend offered to bring them home for me, so i took advantage,, shame i dont feel any better for it

I've been blaming the BFing recently too.

yes, my 3 bf babies have all slept differently. one I would even say was/would be a good sleeper, except she has got used to being woken regularly by her brother and is now waking out of habit herself.

last night wasn't good here, dt2 has a bad cough, and we're up since 5.30. am at your 2 hour nap 4mad! mine haven't slept for 2 hours in months. doing the whole zen acceptance thing and co sleeping is the only way I'm surviving, but dp is still in our bed and I so miss being there too.

those who are avoiding to feed to sleep: if they wake up after 20/30 minutes, will you feed to calm down? am not trying to not feed overnight, and often it's the easiest way to get them back to sleep, but as feeding to sleep at bedtime often doesn't work, I am trying to get them both to go to sleep in cots as part of a consistent bedtime routine. (I do miss being able to feed to sleep though).

Hi im new to mumsnet, but i don't know what to do about my 7 month old boy anymore he has never slept through the night & he wakes up every night screaming and i don't know why, he has never been a great feeder when it comes to his milk, i am luck if i can get him to take 3/5 oz of milk at any time however he is now on jars & has been since he was 4 moths old. i can be up anything from 3 to 10 times a night with him sometimes feeding sometimes just to put his dummy back in or just for a cuddle......we have tried all different routines and nothing seems to work, we try not to let him sleep after 3pm give him a bath at 6:30pm then feed and in bed by 7:30pm which he does great and he can sleep from then until midnight or even 1am sometimes...but i am more concerned about the screaming through the night i don't know why he does it can anyone help....thanks

Hello Fionaanne. Not sure I can help but lots of sympathy. I found my DS was worse when he had a dummy but not sure how you could stop using it if that's what he uses to settle. My DS sucks my finger which is pretty much the same thing and I think he wakes looking for it.
Maybe you could try giving your DS something calorific like mashed avocado before bedtime? Not sure if it would work. I've been away for the last few weeks so was using jars for my DS for the first time and I was surprised by how low in calories they were.....saying that my DS doesn't sleep regardless of what I feed him.
We had a rubbish night last night but I think DS is starting a cold (which normally makes him sleep better). He was waking every hour so about 4am I couldn't cope anymore and got DH up and we swapped for the first time in months. Meant I got nearly 3.5 hours sleep in the spare room but DH went to work having only slept about 10 minutes from 3am (crying was keeping him awake before that). Feel a bit guilty but refreshed! Was feeling nauseous with tiredness yesterday and didn't think I'd survive another bad night. Was having very dark thoughts about ways I could quieten DS so thought it was time to get a break.

Hi Fionaanne - sorry you've got a poor sleeper too! It's my first baby so I can't offer much experienced advice but my friends little boy cried with an ear infection so you could maybe rule that out? Also I don't know much about colic but could it be that?

Judy sorry you and dh had a bad night. I hope your ds isnt coming down with a cold and you're right when you're really tired sometimes you just need half an hour on your own!

My ds had a better night last night - he slept from 11 until 3.30 he had his jabs yesterday so it might have been the calpol that helped him sleep! Still it gives me hope that we might have a god night tonight too!

Hi all
Judys good luck with Millpond and let us know how it goes. They seemed to give Enoon a very detailed plan.

fionaanne sympathy from me...I don't know what the screaming could be, but maybe you should run it past your GP / HV? Could it be teething?

Thanks for your nap training info bigkids - its a bit similar to what I am doing with DS, though I may need to up the ante as he is taking ages to settle with me sitting by him, then only sleeping half an hour!!!

DS is taking ages to settle tonight (DP is with him) and I've not had much luck with his naps - 3x30 minutes again. Although interestingly he slept like that on Monday, then that night he pretty much had his best ever night (7-12, then 12-4, then 4-5.20 and 5.20-6.20).

Doing this nap training is giving me the time to ponder how rubbish DS's sleep is and making me obsess a bit. Think I will give it a bit longer and if it does not improve then start buggy naps again, at least it gets us out in the open air and away from the navel gazing...

well we had a nightmare day with naps as we were out loads so lots of ten mins sleep meant a miserable baby when we got home, she is now down but i can hear her grizzling.........

fionaanne, my dd was not very good at taking her milk, until 5mths plus she only had 4oz at most at a time but now at 6mth she is taking 5-6oz, i just moved her onto a faster teat and that seems to have helped and she takes more, but can still be fussy, esp if tired. just started her on mashed up food but only at lunchtime for now.

her lack of milk never affected her growth at all, weighed her today 18lb 7oz! and she is on the 99 percentile for length!

she also wakes at night just for a cuddle, or the dummy so no help to you there! the only thing i can say is she is my 5th and so i know they all get their eventually and i am just trying to hang onto the fact that eventually she wont need milk in the night (twice a night at mo) and she will sleep better......... we co-sleep but dp is sleeping on the sofa most nights, and not happy about it really, but he snores as well and i cant cope with that AND dd waking!

re milipond, i have heard good things from friends, but i thought it seemed to involve some form of cio and i just couldnt do that, but its got to be worht a try :)

inspired by bigkids I am planning to try and get my pair to nap in cots. managed it for the third nap with dt1 yesterday and today, but dt2 was beside himself with upset, and I had to take him out and feed to sleep. oddly, he is the one who is happier to go to sleep in the cot at bedtime.

am also planning, now they are asleep in cots, to resettle in the cot and not feed before 9.30 tonight (3 hours since last feed). we are away week after next and I'm not convinced the sleeping arrangements will be twin-co-sleepable, so I really need to get them sleeping longer in cots before then or I won't get any sleep.

Raising, how long does yours normally nap for? 3x30 mins is standard here.

well done to snarfle's ds, 4.5 hours is fantastic! :looks sternly at the dts and hopes they learn from his example:

good luck with millpond Judy, and well done to your dh for giving you some sleep.

incidentally, I could not do CIO for my dcs. but does anyone else's conviction wander when they meet someone who did CIO and has a baby who sleeps for 12 hours? I met someone today, who said that her mum came round for a week and physically restrained her from going to her ds. apparently it took a week, the longest he cried for was 3 hours , but has slept 12 hours a night ever since. even so, say that was 21 hours of crying. my pair have cried way more than that at bedtimes, just spread over many more days. is mine really the kinder way?

I've requested that our plan does not involve cc and they are ok with that. Apparently it involves gradual retreat but not sure how it will work. I think millpond are big on cc (their book is full of it) but they'll accommodate you if you don't want it but warn it may take longer.
Got to find a way to settle him though and just have no faith in my own ability anymore.
DH and I had a talk about cc if this doesn't work and he thinks we'd have to do it. I just don't think it would work on DS though and just feel it's too much. Hoping we don't have to cross that bridge and not sure we'll agree on what to do. I do feel tempted when I hear if it working but it's normally people who's babies weren't that bad to begin with. Not sure it's suitable for hardcore sleep refuseniks like ours even if we wanted to.

Oh blimey don't use me as inspiration, our naps were terrible today - after the nap in cot he had an hour in the sling over lunch and half an hour in the pram later. He needs three hours of naps or he wakes even more than usual and tonight is bearing this out

I thought we were on an upward slope, last two nights have had three and four hour sleeps. But he's already woken tonight which means we're in for a bad night. Baaaah!

Does anyone else's babies look tired by the way? DH's argument is that it's not fair on DS that he's not getting enough sleep. Feel like I'm doing him wrong whatever I try. Even co-sleeping isn't helping at the moment. Hope this consultant is a miracle worker!

Judys I would try not to beat yourself up about that, though I am the same and on dark days think I am failing DS and not meeting his needs. But rationally I think that waking up in the night is normal and what babies do...and our lot seem to need a lot of help getting back to sleep, but even the babies who "sleep through" wake, it is just they can put themselves back to sleep.

I actually felt that DS was getting the least sleep when I was trying to night wean him and he was crying an hour in the night...then he would make up for it with more naps in the day. So I think that with sleep they do have a way of getting what they need.

Count posted a good link on another thread - will see if I can link to it. But basic idea is that some babies get v stressed when crying, and for other it is a way of calming down. I'm pretty sure my DS increases stress when he cries - and it sounds like yours is the same.

Mama - it's hard to say what DS's natural nap pattern is, as I am so involved in his napping! But for a while he was having 1.5 hours in the morning (with me resettling after half an hour) and then 2 hours in the buggy. But he always has a half hour sensitive period where he is likely to wake up, and resettling him isn't working too well at the moment. I wouldn't mind so much, but sometimes it takes an hour for him to go to sleep! Hardly seems worth it.

About your DTs crying more overall than the LO left to CIO - I'm not sure it's the crying that is the issue, but more the being left alone to cry. Think there is a Sears quote about crying in loving arms being different to CIO!

This was the link Count posted.

Judys could your DS be going through the 8/9/10 sleep regression? Just wondering as you mentioned that co-sleeping was no longer working.