Sleep Nightmares Part III: At 3am No-One Can Hear You Scream

[CountBapula]

I've been moaning about documenting my 8 mo DS's 'challenging' sleep patterns on MN since he was three weeks old. He's still waking every 2-3 hours at least and the other thread's full, so here's a shiny new one for all you parents of hardcore sleep refusenik babies.

Who's with me?

Bonsoir tout le monde! We're in France on our first proper holiday with DS and it's going fine so far. The trip over was very easy as he just dozed in the car. He also settled v easily in the cot here last night (we're staying in a self-catering apartment thingy). He slept okay, not brilliantly - had to feed him back to sleep twice, so a bit of a step back from the last few days in the UK when he was going without milk until 4/5am. But I guess that's natural waking up in a strange place at night.

It's quite liberating being here because we have to go with the flow rather than stress about naps etc. DS had a nice long nap in the cot this morning - fed to sleep though - and then dozed in the pushchair and car while we were out. It's a world away from when he was younger and wouldn't sleep in the go - that was so stressful.

We've been eating in the apartment in the evenings as obviously not ready to leave DS with a sitter, and we've just been keeping him up until 9pm and all eating together. He seems to be loving French food, especially all the lovely fruit compotes you can buy in the supermarkets here.

We've had some nice sunshine, seen some beautiful countryside and eaten really well, and DS is crawling all over the place. We all feel really refreshed and invigorated (still knackered though - some things don't change!). Really glad we didn't let DS's sleep ishoos stop us having a little holiday.

Sorry to hear about all the bad nights. judy v interested to hear how it goes with Millpond. I agree with you about CC. Mama DS has always cried a lot before going to sleep, until he was about 6 months old. But the crying he did when we attempted CC on the advice of the sleep consultant was different. He was hysterical - obviously extremely distressed. I could not let him cry like that for three hours. If anyone had tried to stop me going to him I would have shoved them out of the way :( I think sometimes it's the nature of the crying as much as the amount IYSWIM.

But surely three hours of crying isn't controlled crying but extremely uncontrolled! I thought with cc you did 1,2,3 mins etc. I won't do it - I don't like it and DS is too small. But being honest, if he's still waking hourly at nine or ten months I probably will. This is just so hard :(

bonsoir count. very but sounds like you're having a great time.

bigkids I hope your night goes better than you fear. I think the mum I met did CIO - literally, walk out the room and don't come back. I agree with you count, the dts cry less intensely when I stroke, sing etc. even though my attempts to get them to sleep in cots involve crying, I am there the whole time, telling them they can sleep, and reassuring. I think this is the closest I want to get to cc. I like your Sears quote raising.

well I just did the first nightfeed at 9.30! they woke a couple of times before that, but I settled in their cots. although they cried loudly, it was quite brief so, if I have the stamina, I will try not to feed again till after 12.30, but we shall see.

Hello all

Count, glad you have managed to drop the 10/11 feed. We haven't done that for a week or two either. I was dream feeding her, or feeding her if she woke when I went to bed. But when I had the courage to just leave her, instead of waking at 12/1 as before she started going to 4 or 5, which is fab, but our house is so light by then that I find it difficult to get back to sleep.

I think one of DD2's problems is she is a light sleeper. I wonder how much of it is her nature, or whether it is my fault for not being more noisy round her as a newborn (funny how we always feel like it is our fault, other people my mum and the books make you feel that way).

Bigkids, that sounds like a very sensible and persistent way to stop feeding to sleep. Well done!

Going to sleep is a frigging nightmare for us at the moment. DD2 just won't keep still. She just has a bit of milk, rolls over and has a just, tries (unsuccessfully) to roll herself back into feeding position. But she is harder to feed to sleep and like Count I'm finding it a pain, and am having to reply on cot calisthenics!

Fionnaanne, wish I had some advice. Keep posting and we might be able to suggest something.

MamaChocoholic, I have considered CC/CIO, and have left her to try sometimes, but no longer than 10 mins or so to see if she just needed to settle down. People keep saying 'they need to learn to self-settle settle' but I'm not sure CIO teaches them anything other than you won't come if they cry :)

So, I don't want to be smug, and it has only been one night but DD2 slept through 8-8 last night! Well, she woke when DH put her into the cot, then DH said he thought he heard her at about 11.30, but thought I had gotten up to her. I hadn't heard her at all! Didn't wake till about 8am, but I was up at 6.30 with leaky boobs and panicking about DD2! I'm going to bed now, I can't imagine it will happen again!

Morning all. Trying to keep caught up with your posts but struggling a bit.

Saw my gp tuesday - she used to work in a sleep clinic in Aus. Her method is a modified PU/PD. She said that letting them cry (at dds age of 5 months) for longer than 1 to 2 minutes is useless as after that the adrenalin is so high they don't know why they are crying and they cant calm themselves down so yes, leaving them to it just teaches them that someone wont come if they cry.

(sorry, typing one handed so apologies for lack of punctuation!)

I've put dd back in her hammock (against the drs advice). I think it helped. Not feeding to sleep is helping for sure. Now were jiggling to sleep which isn't great but it's better. Last night she went down quickly at 6 then woke at 7 when some bloody kids started ringing the bell and running away. DH disconnected the bell in the end! She woke again at 8 with teething pain and I gave her baby paracetamol. She then slept until 2am. So a good 6 hour block plus 8 hours since her last feed. She hasn't done this for 2 months so it feels like a win.

Naps still crap here. I know she sleeps better at night when she naps in the day.

Cos- I used to be Beijingaling.

Bumper - hope you get the same tonight.

Count - enjoy the trip. VERY .

Judy - I'll be interested to see how you go. I'm thinking I'll need to contact them for stopping this jiggling to sleep business. I just don't know what to do next.

Sigh. Random 2hrs of screaming again in the night. He kept falling asleep and then waking up crying again 10 seconds later, so I think is teething again.

comrade why is the hammock against drs advice?

Dr doesn't advise the hammock because she thinks that it scrunches reflux babies up too much where as in a cot that is raised at one end their spines are flat so (I'm guessing) it is further for the acid to travel in order to wake them up and discomfort them. However, I know on the Amby website they specifically say that hammocks are good for reflux babies. TBF she does seem more scrunched/curved in the hammock but since last night was so good (and so far tonight has been too) I'm going to ignore her.

Dr is also a hard arse in terms of babies always going to sleep awake in their cots IYSWIM so she doesn't seem to approve of the feeling of being rocked/cuddled that a hammock brings. I assume she thinks it's because once baby goes from hammock to crib it's yet another sleep association that you need to fix.

well I didn't manage not feeding till midnight, dt2 woke with a terrible cough, and I didn't feel I could not feed him, then of course I couldn't deny dt1 as she woke up to watch him feed. but they have just gone down for their 3rd nap in their cots, and it took only about 5 minutes! really hoping this is a sign that their sleep ability is developing.

comrade I have gone from jiggling dt2 to rocking his bum on the bed next to me to rocking his bum in a cot to (now) laying a firm hand on his back in a cot. one thing I think that has helped is that I always use the same "sleepy words" (shhh, sleepy time) and repeat whilst he's falling asleep, from the time I used to rock him to sleep in my arms. it means his aural sleep cue has been consistent as the position has changed. I've read it can also help to have a soft toy that you hold whilst rocking, that becomes a comforter in the cot, but I've never been organised enough to maintain this (you wouldn't believe how many soft toys I can misplace in one small house!)

Well it wasn't a bad night after all - down at seven, woke at eight then at midnight with a leaked nappy. After that I couldn't settle him at five so brought him into bed and he slept on DH's chest till seven. I was so pleased, I thought he'd done a five hour stint but then DH said he settled him quickly at two. Still, not bad!

Andrea Grace had told me it would probably take a month for us owing to DH's age (he is five months today!) and I can see there will be no quick fixes for us. But looking back I can see this week is do much better than last week, and is SPECTACULARLY better than last month. So we're getting there.

Having just said that, DS just woke :( . He was doing three hours at the start of the night earlier in the week. But yesterday he woke after an hour and today after half an hour so god knows what's happening. And this week he has become a total nap refusnik! That was the one part of sleep that we had sorted. I think now he's older he can go a bit longer before needing a sleep so perhaps I'm trying to put him down too early?

Anyway, I'm going into hospital tomorrow till Monday so I desperately hope he sleeps ok, it's the first time either of us has been alone with him for a while and three tough nights will be really hard on DH. so anyway, I wish you all sleep-filled weekends! I'll catch up on Monday.

I'm so sorry, I keep reading everyone's post but I can't seem to remember who has said what. I hope you are all okay. We're having a totally nightmare. Naps are crap again and DD is plain refusing to sleep at all in the evening unless I'm in bed with her. I have caved two nights this week and just gone to bed at 8pm but now DH is home so he is with her. She's been crying for an hour so far.

I am gobsmacked that we have regressed to this. I never thought it possible. There was a time when we could get 4 hours in the cot out of her. Please someone tell me we'll at least get back to that, I can't bear it any more.

Thanks for the link to the moxie article on CIO. I knew it wouldn't work for DD, I just didn't understand why (I too have been tempted on hearing the miracle stories). I had to leave her to cry last night just so I could get ready for bed and when I got back to her (it can't have been more than 5 minutes), she was hugging her bunny and pulling its ears in desperation. I was beside myself for her.

Oh Kitty you poor thing :( I have no advice but such sympathy

Sorry for the bad nights cos and kitty. How old is your dd kitty? I'm sure you'll get back to longer stretches at some point. It's so hard to cope with though. Can anyone give you a break?
Hope you're still enjoying your holiday count - sounds blissful. Hope you're eating lots of lovely French cakes .
We just spoke to the millpond lady and she seemed pretty good. We have a gradual retreat plan which starts with us rocking DS to sleep sucking my finger and we reduce contact every 3 days. Also to try gradual night weaning. Interestly she thinks we should try again with the dummy which I thought would be a no-no.
She didn't say it but I got the impression she thought we should do cc. The one thing she did say that we probably won't do is that if DS is crying really hard and we can't calm him by whatever we're doing then we should leave the room for 10 seconds, then 20s and then 30s but no longer. I said I thought that sounded like v short cc. I think the idea is that DS would stop crying when we come back in but just can't see that working. Will see though.
Really hope the plan works but think it might be physically too much. Have to stop co-sleeping and do naps the same way or take him out in buggy. Am barely getting by as it is and sh has no holiday left. She was talking about when DS starts sleeping through and it almost made me laugh seems like such a mad idea.
Should really go to sleep as DS is in bed with me already - after all my woe yesterday he slept in my bed from 8-12 last night and then until 3. I couldn't sleep at all for the first stretch though. Sorry for mammoth post and hope you're all having good nights.

Hello,
Just thought I would dip my toe into this thread - posted a couple of times on the previous one. Things are not going too well on the sleep front. We've gone from me staying in dd's room with her while she slept in the cot, to her insisting on being held, er, ALL NIGHT. If I try to put her down she wakes, scratches at her head and cries.

I did think the head scratching was pain related to teething so was given her Calpol most nights which did settle her in the evenings. I'm a bit worried about how much she's had though - she actually recognises and gets excited by the spoon!

To top it all off, I've now got terrible insomnia. I'm so tired I could cry :(

Sorry, this post is a bit me me me... Just not looking forward to another night of being propped up in bed. Not quite sure how we ended up in this situation!

Missrose how old is your DD?

Kitty I recall having a really bad time with DS's sleep around 6 months, but things did get better (slowly) once he was used to settling in his cot rather than feeding to sleep, which we instigated at 7 months (through sitting with him and shush patting). But it may also just be an age thing and as he has developed, his sleep ability has too.

So don't think that your DDs sleep will be like that forever, she WILL improve.

Good luck with the Millpond plan, Judys! Let us know how it goes.

Count your hol does sound great. Its nice to get away from worrying about sleep and just go with the flow as it sounds like you're doing! I was worried about taking DS away in case it interfered with his sleep, but in the end he took it in his stride. Sounds like your DS is the same.

missrose your night times sound like mine:
DD insisting on being held all night. CHECK
Insomnia. CHECK

Last night DD decided to stay awake from 12-5 despite me complying with her wish to be held in our bed. How many times is it possible to say 'we had the worst night ever'??

DH just leaving for a boys weekend away and then another 5 days away at work. 7 days to slowly lose all sense of sanity for me.

Oh dear, it sounds like everyone had very bad nights. Sympathies to you all.

Mama Thanks for the tip. TBH I think I'm going to just keep going with jiggling to sleep for at least a week and then reassess.

Another good night here. DD went to bed at 6, woke at 7, 8 and 9 due to some reflux but went back to sleep relatively quickly each time. I woke her at midnight for a feed and she then spent two hours awake, cooing and chatting to herself. Bloody DH hadn't seen her so during the so called dream feed he was trying to chat to her and pulling faces. Then every time she almost dropped off he would cough or snore so loudly it woke her up again. Then this morning had the cheek to snipe for me thumping him with a pillow and telling him to sleep in the spare bed if he couldn't shut up for waking him up. He then said he had been awake the entire time which I said was quite a trick: to be wide awake and snore at the same time.

Anyway the next thing I knew DD was burbling happily and it was 7:40am!

Fingers crossed for tonight. She's already woken once sadly but I can cope with that if I get almost 7 hours again.

hello ladies, sorry so many are having bad nights :(

glad uyou have a plan count and i thought of you today, there is a mum with a young baby (3mthsish) at toddler group and she was letting the baby suck her finger to go to sleep! i said to her that i 'knew' someone who did that and her baby was now 9mths? and still doing it, lol she was horrified but baby wont take a dummy. we joked about getting a cast made and then a silicone copy of your finger...

merryn actually had a good night last night, went down at 7:30ish, slept till i took her up to feed at 11:20, then slept till 5am!! i however didnt sleep as my eczema was playing up and tbh i was a bit stressed as wed night ds1 ended up in hospital and needing an emergeancy op! so wed night i was awake all night waiting for news from dp who was at the hospital with ds1 (i stayed home with the 4 little ones) and last night i was still stressed from that and my skin was so itchy, i need to go to drs to sort it as it is really sore and disturbing my sleepa nd i am sure my itching disturbs dd

anyhow naps have been ok today so hoping for another decent night and hopefully i will sleep!

4madboys, is ds1 ok? How worry for you and nor being able to be there

Comradejing that sounds like progress. My dh too will claim he was awake. He must be faking those snores then

So, after one full night, the next night wasn't as good. Up for an hour 5.30-6.30, but then another full night 8-8ish! Not getting hopes up tonight. It's dh and I's 5th anniversary. We don't really bother about it usually, but we have ordered Chinese delivery for 8pm. What do think are the chances that both my children will be in bed by then...?

Missrose I meant to say dd2 scratches her head when tired too. She often has actual scratches, and earlier she was pulling her hair. I think it is a common tired sign.

yes merryn pulls and fiddles with her hair when tired, not that she has much!

bumper ds1 is fine, they thought he had a strangulated testicle, hence the emergeancy surgery! but once they opened him up it turned out he had some extra conective tissue and stuff that had grown in their (will have started when he was embryo!) and somehow it had got tangled up with his testicle, hence the extreme pain and swollen balls! thankfully they managed to remove the extra bits without removing the testicle nad all should be in full working order, no damage etc for when he is older, but the poor boy is very sore and swollen and walking like john wayne! and yes it was awful being at home waiting for news, he was in surgery for an hour.

hope you have alovely anniversary evening, right trying to get my 5 off to bed, dp at work, oh how i love doing it all on my own....

Hello all. We're back now. It was a really good three days and did us all the world of good. I was really surprised at how well DS adapted to being away, though we were lucky that we (coincidentally) booked the trip for just after his sleep started to improve.

A few developments sleepwise: firstly, DS has started rolling onto his side and settling that way. Last night I put him down after his feed, awake but dopey, expecting to have to do the usual shh/jiggle routine, and he just rolled over and went to sleep About an hour later I heard him let out a little sob. I opened the door to his room just in time to see him roll onto his side again - he must have gone onto his back again - and go back to sleep That ended up being a five-hour stretch followed by 3.5 hours - pretty good for sleeping in a strange cot in a strange room.

Also he is showing signs of settling himself better on the move. He took a couple of long naps in the pram yesterday and actually slept in there while DH and I ate outside in a cafe. We kept looking at each other and laughing - it was like being one of those couples you see out and about with a sleeping baby in a pram, just getting on with their day. Never thought he'd do that. We actually had to wake him up at one point because he dozed off in the pram on the way to the beach and proceeded to doze in there for 45 minutes while DH and I looked on in amazement. Maybe it was the sound of the waves - we play wave sounds on the ipod when he sleeps at home so the real live version must have been extra soporific.

We have done nothing to accomplish all this. He seems to just be getting the hang of it. Really hope it continues.

Judy - everything crossed for you.
kitty :( sounds awful - can anyone help you over the next week or so?
Bumper sounding good!!

Well, we had another bad night last night with DS being awake from 3.20am to 4.50am - he'd feed to sleep then wake crying as soon as I put him down. I got DH up again in the end and asked if he'd give me a 10 minute break (was really needing the loo as much as anything else). By the time I got back to the room DS was fast asleep so I left them both to it and went into the spare room. Next thing I know DH's alarm was going off - DS had slept until 6.45am. He never normally does 2 hours at that time in the morning. Starting to wonder if it's good that he can't smell the milk (my other theory is that DH's snoring was a reassuring noise!).
He hasn't woken this evening yet either so I should really be making the most of it and be in bed.
Missrose - sorry things are so bad. Is it recent or has it just got steadily worse. Hope you are ok too Kitty - hope getting a bit of suppport on here helps a little over the next 7 days. Hope you're good run continued bumper and you're DS is ok 4madboys. Hope everyone else is ok too.

Welcome back count!

Lucky you count Very pleased for you.

Terrible night last night again. Awake hourly from 6 with bubbles and then teething pain. Ended up co-sleeping at midnight and she was still awake all night.I'm annoyed with myself for the co-sleeping but I was just shagged at that point!

Poor you comrade :( that sounds horrid

DH just texted to say last night DS only woke four times and had 2 x 2 hour and 1x 5 hour sleep! Amazing for us - he often wakes eight or nine times. Like you Judy I'm beginning to wonder if me being in the room makes it worse!