Sleep Nightmares Part III: At 3am No-One Can Hear You Scream

[CountBapula]

I've been moaning about documenting my 8 mo DS's 'challenging' sleep patterns on MN since he was three weeks old. He's still waking every 2-3 hours at least and the other thread's full, so here's a shiny new one for all you parents of hardcore sleep refusenik babies.

Who's with me?

Oooh that's a good idea Judy! I'd join it for sure. I'm thinking about graduating from this thread, and hoping I'm not jinxing myself... DS now sleeps through at least every other night and apart from that one crap night, on te nights he doesn't I only have to get up once or twice to pop his dummy in. I'd like to tell all the newbies to have hope and read thread two - six weeks ago I was weeping on the floor next to the cot and now I have an evening again and a bit of unbroken sleep! (I don't sleep through yet)! We are still doing all the processes we were doing before and hoping he'll sleep through always soon...

About the self settling on the other thread, I invented the stages myself based on what I'd read on here and in NCSS and on what DS seemed to like so I think you could use your discretion and go with gradual steps based on your DS. I think taking him into our bed (against Andrea's instructions) at five ish most mornings did slow things up but ultimately we're ok in the end!

Bigkids - I'm off in search of your thread yo find out what you did as I feel I'm getting nowhere. DS2 falls asleep easily on the breast and I cannot put him down in the cot or even slide away from him on our bed without him waking. Even if I wait 20-30 minutes after he falls asleep and he's breathing deeply, his face isn't moving, arms floppy etc. It's so frustrating.

DH is here tonight so I've left him dealing with it and am enjoying some downstairs evening time got the first time in a week!

BTW on a more positive note DS2 has learnt to crawl, pull up to stand, clap, sit up from lying and attempted his first cruise in the past 10 days, so I'm hoping done of the lack of sleep is developmental.

It's the 'how did you get your baby to go to sleep alone' thread

How's everyone doing? All over the place here. DS v hard to settle in the evening. Think his second tooth is on the way. The occasional decent stretch but he's not sleeping as well as he was.

Sorry things aren't great for you count. Things are a bit shit here to be honest as well.
We really felt we've been getting somewhere but for the last while DS has been really difficult in the night. He's doing a lot of screaming and when he does go to sleep he quite often wakes again 10 minutes later no matter what we do.
He's had a cold for about 3 weeks now, coughs in the night and can be a bit wheezy so I finally phoned for a doctor's appointment today. At our surgery you either have to have an urgent complaint and get seen that morning or have to wait 2 weeks for a routine one. I asked for an urgent one which meant I had to talk to a nurse first. She was just trying to be nice but picked up on the fact I said it was affecting his sleep straight away and started asking me about bedtime routines. I just started crying as we had a bad night last night and I'm really tired and DS was screaming as he'd been awake since 5.30am and would not go to sleep (heat isn't helping).
Anyway, in the course of the conversation she basically said that DS was probably picking up on my stress about my dad being ill and I was probably finding it hard to cope because I was a scientist who was used to being in a high powered job (almost made me laugh through my tears the idea that my job was high powered but nevermind). She may be right that I am constantly trying to solve DS and am always looking at variables but she just made me feel like it was all my fault again. I knew I was in for a hard time when the first thing she said after I told her what the problem was "are you a first time mum?". I'm always reading that you should trust your instinct about these things and we've talking about seeing the dr for a week now. Whenever you do though you're made to feel your just being neurotic. Anyway, sorry for the rant. Feeling like I'm going a bit mad today.

Oh Judy your post really made me feel for you. I got a lot of that sort of cr*p from my HV when had DS1. The sort of "you're used to a job where you're in control, stop worrying" pats on shoulder etc. DS1 has developmental delays and it took 10
Months for me to convince the health professionals at the surgery that they needed to refer him to a paediatrician and they just wanted to fob me off as an overly anxious mother. I was right and they were wrong as it turned out. I now always trust my instincts and fight like you wouldn't believe for what I think should be happening, ask a million questions and am generally a tenacious pain in the arse to the long list of people DS1 sees but I'd rather they disliked me than he missed out. You
Know your child and thru do not, you are undoubtably doing they best you can and what you feel is right for your family and don't let them make you feel otherwise!

BTW DS2 also has a cold and is currently asleep, snoring, on my left arm.

Thanks hanbee - sounds,like you had quite a fight. Sorry for the rant yesterday was having a terrible morning - think it was the killer combination of extreme tiredness and pms.
Managed to only do one 2m feed last night so getting somewhere with the plan.

Judy I read your post and felt really for you. Bedtime routines FFS! I've had so many doctors, HVs etc give advice about DS's sleep, and have often felt like shouting, "I know more about babies' sleep than you, NO, READING HIM A FUCKING STORY WILL NOT HELP". I totally get why you were upset. I would have reacted the same. Hope things are improving.

Variable here but not awful. DS's second tooth is through, and the hot weather isn't helping.

My mum gave me a copy of this article. I was very about it. If I was earning what Joe Cole does, I would have just got a live-in nanny!! Anyway, my mum was all, "Ooh, here's something new you can try" but it sounds like CC to me. Anyway, thought the people on the thread might find it interesting and it might give you a bit of a laugh

Hello all, not much to say but thought I would check in. The hot weather was crazy last night - had to put a fan in DS's room and still it was 30 degrees.

Judys the health centre sounds annoying, especially when you can either do emergency appointments or one in 2 weeks time. With a baby you're always going to choose the emergency one I would think.

One 2 minute feed sounds fab though. Sounds like the plan is going well. Do you get regular telephone support from your sleep lady?

Since I last posted things have been on a downward spiral here...DS was waking and crying then v hard to settle last week. I suspected teething but no sign of another tooth yet. Last night he woke every 2 hours and was fed back to sleep pretty much (like Carly Cole's baby!) when a week ago he had seemed to be settling himself back to sleep every so often (would hear him call out then silence).

I think I need to try something again and stick to it this time. It is ridiculous to be feeding DS 4 times a night!! I know he wakes and wants to go back to sleep but just is unable to any other way. But I don't know how to teach him without the hours of crying that we experienced the last time.

There are lots of graduates to this thread now...sadly I think I will be graduating to that "one year olds who don't sleep through" thread [feeling sorry for self emoticon].

Don't worry if you graduate to the 1 year olds that don't sleep through thread. DS1 slept through at 14 months but was only waking once a night from 10 months. He will now go to sleep on his own even in a strange room on holiday and when he wakes get himself back to sleep quickly unless v unwell. He is pretty much a sleep angel. I fed him to sleep until he was about 18 months and he still learnt to self settle, just in his own time. Mind you he was never as bad as DS2!

I now have the cold and am trying nit to wake DS2 with sneezing.

hanbee that is very reassuring :)

Raising I fed DS back to sleep three times last night too!

Hi i don't know if I can join this thread as my DS is only 8 weeks old so I belong on your original sleep 'mares thread! I've missed the boat!

But I thought you might all have some helpful tips/advice/reassurance and maybe there are things you've learned or wish you'done in retrospect? Also it's just so reassuring to know other people have similar issues though I'm sorry you're still having them a few months down the line.

I know everyone says "8 weeks is so young it'll all change", but on the other hand I don't want him to get into habits that are hard to break such as always feeding to sleep with the odd successful jig...and what if it doesn't change?! He basically sleeps between 8-12 hours per day&night. Then, he only sleeps on a person (usually me!) and generally after being bf to sleep or once in a while when rocked and jigged. If I move him off me into pram/moses b he notices, wakes and cries so I can't "sleep when baby sleeps" more like "be pinned to the sofa...."

Fortunately he WILL go into moses basket twice a night - usually a 3-4 hour sleep from 11pm but then after the following feed, he only sleeps 1 hour before waking and crying. there's no getting him to settle back in it so we have him in with us - often only happy if on my or DH's chest - but we sleep really badly. I don't know how people manage to co-sleep and get any rest, and we have a huge super-king bed too!

I've never been able to put him down awake for him to then fall asleep except when he was in hospital (and on medication). I wonder what's the difference between using cc at 6 months or 2 months? Surely it's going to be a nightmare & upsetting whenever you do it - so why not get 4 months of extra sleep for al of us and get him settled better now?? Do any of you wish you had tried it or definitely think it's no-go?

I'm in the middle of tonight's second "feed-to-sleep-even though clearly not hungry" after MUCh jigging, shushing and singing to no avail... At 3am...everyone in the blinking neighbourhood can hear the baby scream!!

Hi LoubyLou - sorry you're having a newborn sleep nightmare! The first few months can be really tough dealing with little sleep on top of getting used to dealing with a baby. It's maybe not what you want to hear but I wish I had relaxed a bit more about DS's sleep at that stage. I had read the bloody BW book when pregnant and was sure I needed to teach DS how to sleep and now wonder if that is where our problems came from.
To be honest, I think it sounds ok-ish for the stage you are at - especially getting a 3-4 hour stretch (please don't hate me for saying this!). I think at 8 weeks nearly all babies will still be waking in the night for several feeds so I wouldn't worry about feeding to sleep at this stage at all. The only sleeping on you bit doesn't sound great though. Have you looked into whether he has reflux? Sometimes when babies have it they will only be happy sleeping upright. Even if he's not being sick he could have silent reflux (where he is bringing stuff up but swallowing it rather than being sick).
I don't wish I'd done cc at all - especially not at 2 months. I'm not completely against cc - I think it depends on the baby and whether you can stick it out. And yes, while it will be a nightmare and upsetting whenever you do it for you, I think it makes a big difference to your baby when you do it. At 2 months your baby doesn't even understand that you are separate from him and when he cries it is for a reason. I think even Dr Ferber who developed cc (not sure but I'm sure count will be along to correct me with her encyclopedic knowledge of baby sleep plans if I'm wrong ) doesn't recommend cc till 6 months. I saw a baby sleep specialist that the HV sent to visit me and she said at the baby sleep clinic here they don't recommend it until 8 to 9 months. You have to wait until your baby can understand that you are away and that you can come back or it is too distressing for them. I know it's hard when they are screaming though and if it gets too much I wouldn't feel bad at all about stepping outside the room for a few minutes to clear your head if it gets too much.
Anyway, I really wouldn't assume you are in for months and months of this just yet anyway. In my NCT group lots of babies were nightmares at 8 weeks and by 4 months they were self settling and sleeping through by themselves. I really think it depends on the baby - I know people who feed their baby to sleep every night at 9 months and they then sleep through.
Sorry for not offering more than wait and see. I would suggest co-sleeping but it doesn't sound like it's working for you. You're more than welcome to post about your terrible nights here though and get lots of sympathy though.

Just thought - I wish I'd taken DS to see a cranial osteopath sooner. I took him at about 4 or 5 months and I think this helped with being able to settle him. If you search on here you should find threads with recommendations. It's sometimes a bit pricey but in some parts of the country there are clinics where they help with the costs.

Hello everyone, sorry I've been awol, but work went a bit crazy and I lost track of you all.

I think we may be in the 8/9m sleep regression. Sigh. He'll only go to sleep if you cuddle him and wait till he's properly asleep before putting him down, and has been waking every couple of hours. not interested in feeding in the night, he's not fed for a good few days now, he just cries until you cuddle him back to sleep again. Thankfully he does seem to be still doing one reasonable stretch, last night was 1.30 till 5 so we are just about coping at work!

loubylou I think they say babies of younger than 2m aren't capable of learning what CC is trying to teach them, so it's just very traumatic for them.

Hi LoubyLoo. 8 weeks is hard. I remember hitting a wall (literally! No, not really) at around 9 weeks. But as Judy says, the bloody Baby Whisperer really stressed me out about everything. It is not unusual for an 8-week-old baby to not fall asleep when put down awake. My DS only does it occasionally at nine months, and even then needs a lot fair bit of encouragement.

Also agree with Judy that CC is not for newborns. I tried a version of it at six months on the advice of a sleep consultant and it was horrible - I actually now think six months might even be too young for some babies. (Thanks for the compliment BTW Judy )
I have read that Ferber doesn't recommend it before six months, or a year, or that he doesn't set an age limit at all - there are various versions of that story on here anyway. But generally it isn't recommended before six months because before then the baby could be crying from hunger. Also, as Judy says, they are not yet able to understand that you are coming back when you leave the room, which is very distressing for them. They don't understand this until around nine months when they develop object permanence - the understanding that something continues to exist if they can't see it (eg if they drop a toy under their highchair they will begin to look for it rather than assume it's gone forever).

I'm not against CC either and I wish it had worked for us, but it didn't, and after seeing it first-hand, I'm very sceptical that it 'teaches' babies anything.

I remember DS took nearly all his naps on me until he was about 3 months old. He just would not be put down. It sort of happened on its own. I think so much about sleep is developmental, and the 'rod for your own back' stuff is pernicious bullshit, personally.

Hang in there. I'm sure he will settle soon. Post on here for advice, sympathy and !

Snap, Cosmosis - DS is clingy, mad at bedtime, taking up to two hours to settle, needing rocking and multiple night feeds, waking every couple of hours ... sigh. If it's not one thing it's another!

Sorry to hear you're suffering too. Nice to hear from you, though. I thought you'd deserted us and headed to the shores of Sleep-Through Land :)

Sadly not. I wish I had. just been trying to get to grips with busy ft work and all the complications that brings!

It's all very odd though, all the things that used to work - rocking or shh pat or his mobile just seem to make him worse atm, he just wants you to sit still and cuddle him and then he nods off. We're off camping in a month for 10 says so I am just praying this phase is over by then....

Hope that came across the way it was intended count - it was meant as a compliment! I'm very impressed by how much you seem to have read - I just order books off Amazon and then sit them in a pile on the floor!

Absolutely Judy, thank you :)

It's desperation more than anything. Keep meaning to do that blog but there's nothing like a non-sleeping baby for sapping your ambition ...

Hello all, sorry I haven't been keeping up. I still haven't caught up with the thread but just wanted to update you all to give you some hope.

Things have been up and down with DD2, and I have continued to feel tired and emotionally down. I have ulcers and painful spots on my tongue, both signs of being run down. However in the past 2-3 weeks DD2 has started to sleep through, patchy at first, but at the moment she is fairly reliably sleeping through.

We started a month or so ago stopping immediately feeding her at night and trying to settle her instead. Through persevering with that we managed to get down to one feed, if not just one waking a night. This from at least 2-3 (and that's after I've gone to bed). But with the rolling and being more active she has been a PITA to get to bed. I couldn't feed her laying down on the bed to sleep then leave her as she just wouldn't stay still. She is now in the spare room and I have taken to feeding her in there. She was still a pain though and in the last week (though still sleeping through - that took some time though, was 1 in 3, then 2 in 3 nights on average, now most nights) it's been taking 3 hours to get her to sleep, either not feeding to sleep or being asleep but waking as soon as I moved her, multiple times in a row. She was also waking up at least once in the 8-11pm period needing resettling. These are the things that we have done which may or may not have contributed to any of this:

Restricting (or trying to restrict) naps after 3ish
Black out curtains (I've always been against these, never used them for DD1 but wanted to try everything)
A fan in her bedroom (I originally did this the other day when it was boiling, but now it is cooler we have kept it one in the eve as I think the noise helps mask other noises i.e. DD1!)
When I try and put her down and she stirs and roots around, instead of either putting her back on the boob or putting her in the cot with my hand on her and hoping for the best I keep hold of her until she has drifted off again
She is waking in the night but because I am still wearing one earphone and she is in the next room we don't hear it unless it is really loud, so not going to her at every stir and she is going back off
We also did one night of CIO , we had to, she wasn't screaming but it was cry stop, cry stop, settling crying IYKWIM, though it did go on for about half an hour or so. The thing is she wasn't feeding to sleep, or wanting to be settled and the night before DH tried sitting in the room with her for an hour and a half which didn't help either, so we thought it might be better to just leave her. That was Sunday and it does seem to have helped. But just to reiterate, it wasn't continuous crying.

So it has been a long journey, we seemed to get one thing sorted then another went wrong :(. It's still not perfect, and she isn't napping long in the day now. But you can't have everything!

I'm not going to leave the thread yet, that would be stupid! But I really hope any of this might help someone else.

Hey Bumper. Glad DD is sleeping better. I feel your pain - DS will not go to sleep before 9pm at the moment, and will only accept being rocked all the way to sleep. It's exhausting :(

Sorry you're still feeling down, though. Hopefully this is just a developmental blip for all of us, and once you start getting more sleep maybe you'll feel better.

Wish DS would hurry up and let me graduate

Well his other top tooth has come through so that could explain all the wakings.

Hi everyone, we've been away visiting family and suddenly DS2 is sleeping from 10-6.30 with only 1 waking! We are still co sleeping to achieve this though.

Between 7 and 10 though he will not stay asleep unless I hold/ breastfeed him. So although I'm now getting sleep I'm still nor getting any time out.

Loubyloo - my DS1 was exactly like yours as a littley, he would only sleep on our chests. He's now an excellent sleeper. We found that a good quality v comfortable nursing/rocking chair helped us get through it until he grew out of needing us all the time.