The 'newborn - sleep nightmare' continuation thread, Cosmosis, count, emo etc. Still a sleep nightmare?

[Bumperlicious]

Just thought I'd catch up with all of you from the last thread to see if now we've moved on from the newborn stage things are any better?

Dd2 is nearly 5 months and sleep is still hit and miss. She is not good at sleeping when out and about so mornings are either spent at home or I choose to socialise and spend the rest of the day fighting to get her to sleep.

She still rarely goes down in the evening despite me trying for 1.5 hours. Eventually goes down 11.30ish and still often wakes twice a night

Am knackered, no end in sight. How's everyone else doing?

bigkids feeling for you.

Aaaah, no idea how long this thread will go on for. Would be nice to graduate soon, but no end in sight here. DS is worse than ever. I'm not feeding until 5 after the 10/11 bottle feed, sometimes he's going longer but its having sweet FA effect on his sleep. He is crying for one hour in the night, every night. Surely this can't be right? Am thinking of stopping, though no idea what to do instead. If we co sleep he literally latches on all night. Just about to post a thread on it.

PS bigkids I know that weeping on the floor feeling all too well. Lots of sympathy from me :(

It carried on being a shitty night. He woke at 11, 1, 3, 5, 6 and then for the day at 7. Worst night in a long time. Do you think it might be because he?d been at the CM?s for the day and in the last 2 weeks he?s only had 2 days there because of all the bank holidays? course could have also been teething. He seems to have been showing teething signs for months now but no teeth to show for it.

bigkids I feel for you. That?s the nice thing about this thread though, we?ve all been there so we can provide a good shoulder to cry on.

Hello can I join you all please?!

DS is 25 weeks, and EBF. He goes to bed at 7pm after a long feed, will wake usually at 8,10,11.30,1,3 and up at 5.30am. He comes into my bed at the 10pm feed.

Is anyone else's child following this pattern?! It's very hard work.

I've used the No Cry Sleep book to get him into bed at 7, but keeping him there is a different matter...

I too am following the "no cry sleep solution" and agree it is hard work. DD is 31 weeks today and only sleeps 2 hours at a time. I am close to tears with frustration cos i feel like i am letting this take over me. Naps have improved slightly and we now have the occasional 2 hour nap! Just keep hoping this will resolve soon and we all get some sleep. Any advice would be welcomed as i am struggling to put her down awake as she comfort sucks.

Hello all I am joining you.

DS is 24 weeks and has had the same sleep pattern for what seems to be forever. He goes to bed at 7pm with a breastfeed and usually settles well, I can put him in his crib awake and he will fall asleep. Then when I go to bed I seem to wake him up no matter how quiet I am so I feed him then, usually about 10.30pm, if I don't go in he will sleep longer. So he can do it.

Then it all goes wrong! He will wake about 2am and I feed and he settles quickly. Wakes at 4am and will not go back in his crib no matter what so I bring him in to bed with us at that point and between then and 7am it is a blur of feeding and sleeping with a little lump in the crook of my arm.

I am moving him in to his own room this week so I think it's time to break the pattern but I don't know where to start.

welcome to the newbies. redandyellow sounds like moving him to his own room will help, if you are disturbing him.

We have just moved DS and it has really helped, I think because you have to get out of bed, rather than just lean over and pick him up, we are being much more consistent with how we treat his wakeups. Also DH is dealing with half of them as DS isn't right next to me, so it's just as much effort for both of us.

nov75 I am working on putting him down awake at the moment. I have done it very gradually. Stopped feeding him to sleep about 2 or 3 months ago and was holding him to sleep in my arms and patting his back. Once he stopped crying everytime I did this, I started putting him down and patting. I'd pick him up if he got upset, but kept trying to put him down. He is just starting to self settle - did it the night before last and again tonight. It's not been quick but we are getting there. It has also made the night time wakings a lot easier to deal with as he doens't rely on being fed back to sleep. Sometimes he goes back to sleep on his own.

Good news about the self settling again cosmosis. How long does your DS go without a feed now - is it all night? Last night I thought I'd see if I could stretch DS out to 3 hours and he woke 90 minutes after his first night feed and would not stop crying - I gave in after half an hour.... I think he's teething and still has a bit of a cold. There's always something though. He did a 3 hour stretch after that so I think things are getting slowly better. Think I need a bit more discipline though.
Hello to the newbies as well. Hope everyone has good nights.

Hello newbies! Glad you joined us redandyellow

Now, someone on here said they were sitting in their DC's room lying in wait for them to stir and settling them before they wake fully. Sorry, can't remember who. I remember reading about it in the NCSS for naps rather than night sleep. Well, thought I'd try it too, as mini-Count keeps waking like clockwork after 2 hours 20 minutes. I assume that is the length of his night-time sleep cycle.

Anyway, I went up to his room 2 hours and 10 mins after he went to sleep and watched and waited. Sure enough, 10 mins later he stirred and started fidgeting. I gently placed a hand on him and went 'shhh' until he went still. Then repeated every time he stirred until he stayed still and his breathing went regular. He ended up sleeping for nearly four hours in the end.

Pantley says that if you do it for a week or so with naps, they eventually learn to do it themselves. I'm not sure that'll happen with DS, but it's worth a try. At least I've managed to stretch his evening sleep out tonight rather than ending up doing a 'dream feed' at 9:30 and getting bloody woken up again just after midnight ...

Ooh that sounds good count! I have heard of it but not tried it myself. Might give it a go for the 10/11ish waking.

judy he goes to bed at 7, and I am trying to only feed at the 2ish wake up and then at 6. A few nights recently have had to feed at the 10/11ish one as well as he just wouldn't settle without.

If I feed at the 10ish one it doesn't seem to stop him being hungry at the 2ish one so I think they are little growth spurts or not eaten enough in the day.

That was me, Count. I tried it last night and twice it worked, for one sleep cycle each time, not on the second. But still, two sleep cycles is doubly better than before!

DS back in my bed last night, still waking every hour but only feeding once after the dream feed. DH took him downstairs from 8 to 1 so I slept a chunk, after he started screaming one sleep cycle into the night and I got all upset again. I'm seeing Andrea at her clinic on Tuesday so five more nights to endure before I have a plan!

Great stuff bigkids! thanks for the tip - will let you know how it goes tonight. Hope Andrea is able to help. I never actually met her but she is lovely.

narmada are you still doing your dream feed? How's DS doing - still making a palaver out of bedtime?

Hi all

Sorry to see you all still here! Bigkids, sounds awful, we all know that feeling of hitting The Wall.

Count, sounds like you are making progress.

Cosmosis we are the same with a dream feed, I tend to wake her when I go to bed so usually feed her, though not always and it doesn't make any difference, but it's the easiest and quickest way to get her to sleep.

Last night was hideous, dd woke at 9, 10.30, 1, 3.30, 6 & 7. She isn't well and was writhing around in pain and grunting. I've been trying to settle her rather than feed when I can and last night she was just falling asleep on my shoulder which is unheard of. So went to dr then to hospital, they were worried the grunting was a sign of breathing difficulties. It isn't. She just seems to do it, and she has a virus. Maybe why she has been vomiting, who knows. I am knackered and tense. She has slept most of the day so who knows how tonight will go.

Hope your dd gets better soon bumper. Sounds like you're having a really awful time of it. I always think it must be so much worse having to worry about your baby being ill than dealing with them being a crap sleeper. Hope last night was ok.

Hello all. Sorry your DD is not well, bumper.

Count I did that resettle thing a while ago when DS was waking 30 mins after going to sleep. I also do it for his first nap, when it usually works but hasn't so much recently. I've spent so much of these last 9 months in darkened rooms trying to get DS to sleep.

Am now on day 8 of not feeding between 11-5...and things are as bad as ever. Worse in the case of last night. DS was up 4 times before 10, then really unsettled from 2 - hixzd (DS's contribution!) his nose was really snuffly and seemed to be waking him up.

He came in with us at 4 and slept til 7 thankfully not latched on the whole time!!

Not sure how long to carry on with something that isn't working....am away for one night next weekend so don't want to get DS back into feeding to sleep. Also we're off on holiday the week after and can't continue with this if DS is still routinely crying for an hour in the night. So sure we'll be back to co-sleeping then. I'm thinking of doing CC after that - if it works as well as everyone says it does, it seems at this point less cruel to DS than him crying every night and consequently not sleeping enough.

We had a better night last night, I only fed once between 11.30pm and 7am so that's pretty good! Plus he didn't have to come in to our bed until about 5.45am so that's also an improvement. He was awake for the day at 6.45am but I got a whole 4 hours of unbroken sleep so I feel almost human.

Poor you bumper - how's DD today?

Glad last night was better redandyellow.

We had an OK night. Did the resettling thing again, though it required some quite concerted jiggling in the cot rather than just a reassuring hand on the tummy. Managed 3 hours 20 mins. Then another 3 hours after I'd gone to bed for the first time in about a week. Then 2 hours and raring to go at 5

DS has napped like a trouper today as well - over an hour both times.

Raising I think you should definitely have a crack at CC if you can stand it. I would have done it ages ago if my DS hadn't reacted so violently to it. I think he's one of the few babies for whom crying to sleep doesn't work. He slept worse, not better! But we've had loads of crying with the various sleep training methods we've tried (eg when we stopped rocking to sleep at bedtime and started settling him in the cot) and we now have far less crying overall. So it might be worth 3 nights of crying if you're having an hour of tears most nights anyway. Good luck if you decide to go for it.

How is everyone's weekend going?

Ds seems to be really improving still. He is self settling more and more at bedtime, and the last 2 nights has only woken once in the night, Friday night at 3 and last night at 1.30! At the moment I am feeding at that wakeup, but only one side as am going to phase it out I think. It did mean that I leaked all over our bed at 5am today though as one side hadn't fed since 7pm, the first time ever!

Wow, cos, that's fab. Once a night - hurray. I remember that leaking-all-over-the-bed feeling from DD. Soon passes tho.

count ooh, that almost sounds ....(whisper it) like things are improving!

DS has been OK this end, always without fail waking 25 mins after going to bed in the evening. Sometimes once or twice again before dreamfeed - still doing this as he needs the extra cals owing to his general feeding issues. He did however wake up at 530 this morning which he hasn't done in ages and ages. He was hungry and wouldn't settle so I had to feed him - again, haven't done that in ages - but he did then sleep until about 8 so can't complain too much! I have been absolutely stuffing him full of food today in hope of avoiding a repeat performance tonight. Was getting very used to my unbroken nights' sleep, gah!

I think we're possibly, maybe, seeing the first signs of improvements. DS is randomly napping longer, sometimes sleeping for 4 whole hours in the evening and doing more stretches that are 2-3 hours rather than 1-2 hours at night. Still feeding 3 or 4 times a night but the first feed has been at 12.30am rather than 9pm. DS is also sleeping until 7am some mornings rather than 6am. Not sure why this is happening but hoping it's the start of him magically getting better by himself .
I have been restricting the feeds as much as possible at night, giving him lots of protein and trying a bit harder to not have him sucking my finger or dummy at the point of falling asleep. We're still co-sleeping half the night but last night I didn't take him into bed until 3.30am. Slowly, slowly we might be getting somewhere.
Hopefully we'll be where you are cos soon! Sounds great. I'm not sure though if it'll happen without dealing with the sucking to sleep issue but we'll see. Glad things are on the up for count and narmada too.

We're surviving! DS still wakes every hour but I've given in to full time cosleeping to cope. I don't enjoy it, I panic about squishing him and find the positions I need to lie in very hard on my hips and knees. But it means slightly more sleep. Still only feeding once between dream feed at ten thirty and six am so I'm pleased with that. Andrea Grace on Tuesday then a week with the in laws when I can nap lots then home to implement the plan!

Cos that's great! And great that there have been other improvements, redandyellow and Judy. But not for everyone, sorry narmada and MrsC.

We seem to have reached the zenith of our bad sleeping. As well as needing to be resettled once or twice in the evening, then usually waking when I go to bed, or dreamfeeding, DD2 is often waking up within an hour of going to bed (and me going to bed) sometimes another hour after that, and for the past two nights she has been up between 2 and 3.5 hours, not settling without a feed, feeding to sleep then waking up when I put her in the cot several times. Last night I was planning escape fantasies of just jumping in the car in my vest and DH's boxers and checking into a hotel, or I had the urge to just stand on the landing and scream 'I don't want to do this any more!'. I didn't though .

If DH was a shite husband I might have done, but it's not his fault, although he pushed it today. To be fair he is trying to create his website for his photography business and is finding it really hard, so is staying up till 1 or 2 in the morning working on it, and he has been very good at getting the kids up in the morning and letting me sleep in. However this morning when I was complaining (as usual) about how tired I was he said 'yeah, I'm finding it really depressing knowing that no matter what I will have to be up at 7.30.' Reader, I nearly killed him.

Bumper that sounds horrific. I don't know how you're still doing it. Have you tried everything short of the crying option? Would you consider the crying option or have you been there and it didn't work - sorry, can't remember.

I have no idea narmada! I am so tired I can sleep through quite a lot of the crying at the moment!

I thought about CC today I don't know, I've read stuff that worries me about it, and I fear that a bit like Count's DS that DD2 wouldn't go down without a fight, she can cry for a loooong time. I have even considered formula in case that might help but now she has this possible dairy allergy that's no use either.

Tonight we are going to try something different. DH is going to feed her last thing, which is never usually does, we wonder if a bottle of EBM might fill her up a bit more. Meanwhile I am going to sleep on the sofa and DH will deal with any wakings until she just won't go down without being fed, that way I may get a few hours in a row. DH is up late at the moment anyway.

It's hard to know if she is still hungry at night. She certainly likes being fed to sleep but I can't tell if it's because she is hungry. We have also cozified her cot, put a duvet, mattress protector and sheepskin under the sheet and put sheets around the bars to make it feel more cozy. She often ends up across the cot rather than lengthways, but it is quite narrow so she is going to get stuck soon. She is suddenly very active too, throwing herself all over the place, rolling around the room and today started getting into a sitting position from laying down. Maybe that is why things are so bad at the moment. She doesn't like any covers on her either and not even a gro bag so I am worried she is a bit cold. It wasn't so bad when she was swaddled and in the hammock. I am at a loss really.

What's happening re the possible dairy allergy bumper? Are you dairy and soy free now, and is she on a dairy and soy free weaning diet? What a bore if so - we are doing this at the mo and there is milk in bloody everything.

Hope it works well with your DP doing some of the settling tonight. Hopefully you will be fast asleep while I'm typing this!

Re the controlled crying, I tried it with DD and found it very, very difficult to do. She had more staying power than I did. An incredible amount. However, I suspect it would have worked had I stuck it out. She is still very tenacious and extremely determined and single-minded (she's now 3)and I really do need to be very, very resolute when it comes to not giving in to her pestering.

There has been some research which has been interpreted as meaning that controlled crying increases the probability of mental health issues for the child further down the line. Putting my researcher's hat on, I have to say I am largely unconvinced by these findings. Firstly, there is no way to distinguish whether problems are caused by the use of controlled crying rather than being the result of innate traits in the children - Maybe the factors that made them difficult sleepers (e.g., tenacity, hyper-alertness, being generally more 'highly strung' than other babies) are the causative factors in future mental health issues.

It is also extremely hard to control for other environmental factors - it may, for example, be true that parents who are more prone to using 'crying' methods of sleep training are generally also those who parent in such a way as to make future mental health problems in their offspring more likely.

The research that links extended periods of excessive crying over several weeks and months to developmental problems is more convincing to my mind, but controlled crying is a couple of days at best - not weeks and weeks of ignoring your baby's cries. My poor DS should by rights be a complete disaster given he spent his first 4 months mostly screaming inconsolably, very loudly (nothing we did made him stop) but strangely he is the happiest little fellow you could wish for now at 7 months. I guess only time will tell though......

Wishing you lots of sleep, bumper. I really feel for you.