The 'newborn - sleep nightmare' continuation thread, Cosmosis, count, emo etc. Still a sleep nightmare?

[Bumperlicious]

Just thought I'd catch up with all of you from the last thread to see if now we've moved on from the newborn stage things are any better?

Dd2 is nearly 5 months and sleep is still hit and miss. She is not good at sleeping when out and about so mornings are either spent at home or I choose to socialise and spend the rest of the day fighting to get her to sleep.

She still rarely goes down in the evening despite me trying for 1.5 hours. Eventually goes down 11.30ish and still often wakes twice a night

Am knackered, no end in sight. How's everyone else doing?

Morning all. We had the usual every-two-hours shenanigans last night, with the delightful variation that DS was wide awake after his feeds, so poor DH had to rock him back to sleep, which took an hour each time :( Think he took pity on me because I'd fallen asleep sitting up during one of the feeds with DS on my lap. As soon as DH moved him he was wide awake and grinning at us. Better than screaming I suppose, but we are still shattered!

blonde sorry your good run appears to have stalled - they do seem to like to lull us into a false sense of security, don't they? Which sleep clinic, BTW? Have only seen packages priced at around the £250 mark so £99 seems a bit more reasonable - maybe we should consider it, as at the moment DH and I can't see the wood for the trees and I think having someone hold our hand would be really useful.

judy my HV has been coming round every fortnight. I don't think she has ever experienced a baby as wakeful as my DS. I cried on the phone to her too - that was nearly two months ago now and things are no better. As you say, it helps to have someone to talk to. Also, she is a lovely, sensible pro-bf HV who hasn't just told me to wean or do CC and constantly tells me I am doing a great job, so as HVs go she is worth her weight in gold.

PS when I say my HV is pro-bf I mean no disrespect to ff-ers on this thread, just that she hasn't just told me to give him formula like so many people have! (Not sure why people seem to think formula is some kind of magic sleep elixir; am sure many posters here could set them straight on that!)

Hi all

Narmada that's fab news about your weekend away. Hope you manage to get some sleep. It'll be so nice not to have to wake up to crying.

Beingblonde, sorry things have got worse again.

Count, I know what you mean about the HV. The only solution mine offered was leaving DD to cry and giving her formula. And as you say, it's nothing against formula, but clearly it isn't a panacea people seem to think it is.

I really feel for you guys. Our nights are nowhere near as bad as yours, evening are the worst for us. This week is different though, DH had to take DD out for a 3 hour drive again last night at 12.30. This is costing us a fucking fortune in petrol! Obviously we can just drive for a bit then stop as DD will bloody well wake up, so we have been driving the streets of Gloucestershire for the past two nights just so one of us, and the baby, can sleep. After that 3 hours she was easier to get down and I actually managed to get her back in her hammock when she wasn't even fully asleep. The doctor gave us some anti histamines which are meant to have a sedative affect but someone clearly hasn;t told my DD that! Poor mite looks awful, her head and back and face are covered in spots, she is so uncomfortable. She's only really complaining at night though, bless her.

God what with DD1 having the pox two weeks ago, now DD2, being housebound for a month (I have barely seen any other adults) and surviving on 4 hours sleep I am ready to drop!

OMG jealous of 2 whole nights away!!!

Oh the old formula line is such a crock of ......
And I say that confidently because both of mine have/ had formula and they are both rubbish sleepers.

Sorry everone is having a thoroughly rubbish time.

We are thinking about using millpond sleep clinic but need to get DS's reflux sorted first otherwise it eill be money down the plughole....

I can't believe we are going away. I don't think my folks have any idea what they've let themselves in for....

bumper so sorry about the CP. What a bummer. Antihistamines can make some kids go a bit manic, even the sedating older ones as is in piriton. It definitely is prirton and not piriteze they've given you, is it?

bumper you poor, poor thing :( :( :(

Think it's time for an un-MN hug for you and DD.

Hi everyone, have carried on lurking and not posting.

Enoon - if you are still there, just wanted to ask you a few questions about your sleep plan...with spacing out the feeds and shortening them, is the aim to cut out night feeding completely?

And is the plan for your DD to sleep from 8-6? When do they reckon babies need more than 10 hours a night? And do they recommend 3 hours of nap a day?

Sorry for all the questions! I'm just trying to work out if I can steal some of your sleep plan for my DS! We have been trying something a bit similar (from a book by Andrea Grace) but we have now got "stuck" - need to shush pat him to sleep (not too bad I know) and then he is STILL waking 1-2 hourly. I'm doing 3 min feeds - after a few nights of that you are supposed to go cold turkey but I'm scared to do that and worried that it is too long to go without anything.

Since we started sleep training he has been reliably waking up at 6. When he slept with us, it was usually 7.30!

Bumper, so sorry, sounds like you are having a mare. Hope dd is getting better now. Meant to post on other thread and say we gave ds piriton at 3 months. Prob too late now!

Need advice/help from you guys. Had blubbering row with dh last night again about the leave him to cry thing. Ds has cold, just had immunisations and last night dh was trying to feed him w bottle last thing but wee man totally screaming and unhappy. Dh wanted to just let him cry (while holding him) but I think he just wanted his mum. Had to beg him to give him to me and calmed down straight off. Then fed him to sleep. Dh v stroppy and said I have to just put up with him crying or this will never end. At which point i started blubbing nonstop. And then we had a not great night, slept half 8 til half 1 then up every 2 hours.

Wanted to ask - sure he does not need fed every 2 hours at night as he goes longer in the day. Any suggestiions for how to lengthen the time between feeds? Ad do I really have to just suck i up and leave him crying??

Sorry v long post.

Hi raisingmrc, I think they need 10 hrs from 6 months, and three hours of naps (we don't manage this mostly).

The day is supposed to go like this:

Up 6am
Breakfast, play
Nap 1 hr 830am (wake up if sleeps longer)
Play, lunch
Nap 1230/1ish, for as long as poss! Dd does about 1.5 hrs
Power nap 10-15 mins at 5 if really tired
Tea
Play
7pm feed on sofa
Bath
Pyjamas
Story
Bed (shush/pat)

I've been introducing this gradually, moved house so wasn't up for too drastic changes all at once and it has worked surprisingly well. I never thought i could get her to bed without at least feeding just prior to bed, but I finally got the courage to try last two nights and she has gone down very easily without any fuss. Am shushing/patting for naps too and she gets more upset about that, but am perseveringly and want to be consistent and she does settle, but there can be a lot of crying, which reaches a crescendo just before she goes to sleep.

I haven't started the last bits yet, which are to give a dream feed and to gradually wean of the night feeds. Idea is you pick a gap to start with e.g. 2.25 hours and refuse to feed if they wake before the interval is up. Shush pat instead, then shush pat back to sleep after feeds. Gradually increase the spacing by 15 mins every three nights (might be four, can't quite remember).

At the same time, reduce the time of feeding by 1 minute per night.

At the same time, gradually reduce the help to get to sleep. Start with shush pat, the shush with still hand, then just shush, I think you reduce every 4 nights. Eventually you start moving your chair out of the room.

This is all quite complicated and we are going to have to write out a day by day plan! Dd already went to sleep in her cot at night so we are skipping some stages of gradual retreat and going straight to shush pat.

Dd has really taken to the new routine, it obviously fits her natural rhythm much better than my haphazard attempts. I have been surprised how well it's worked. I have also been utterly amazed she has gone to sleep so well at night. She is now waking twice, around midnight at 5am and I hope to eliminate the 5am one once I introduce the dream feed. I need to check with the sleep lady about the intervals because when we spoke, dd was waking every 3 hours so will prob extend that.

I think that having confidence in what you are doing and being consistent has helped me tremendously. Knowing that dd will eventually go to sleep being shush patted, keeping calm and quiet and not talking to her or gettin upset myself, knowing that she is tired and needs to sleep, knowing that in am doing the right thing in helping her learn how to sleep in her own. I am actually starting to believe that it's possible she can sleep through, because everything else she's said has been right!

Going to introduce dream feed next two nights, then weaning of the night feeds next week.

Sorry for uber long post, there's a lot in the plan and it's too complicated to explain briefly. Hope it helps though.

Hi salander,

I think that if your baby is used to one way if sleeping the transition to another will always result in crying to begin with. I've felt I just had to be consistent and follow through having started, coz the start is always hardest. And I am doing shush pat, not cc.

But if your baby had just had the jabs, has a cold and is teething, then it's the wrong time to start changing things! Poor little guy, that's a lot to deal with, my dd freaks out big time after the jabs and feels terrible. I'd do whatever it takes to comfort until he's better, then think about whether you want to do anything to change things. If he's only just had his jabs he must still be quite little.

Enoon you sound like you are on top of things, I'm impressed!

Count I'm in york, and the sleep clinic is run by a health visitor here. It does seem quite reasonable but for some reason there is a part of me that wants to wait til DS is 6 monhs... I don't know why!

Last night was ok, not great - he went to bed at 6.30 and was up every hour until 11. We stuck to rocking him in his crib and the longest he cried for was 30 mins, but it wasn't really upset crying, just cranky overtired crying I think. He fed at 11, 1,4 and up for the day at 6.45 which is a big improvement on yesterday's 5am wake up call! My mum came over yesterday and was full of really unhelpful suggestions. She thinks he should be on a bottle (but he's a refuser and I just don't have the energy to push it right now) and that I've made a rod for my own back by feeding to sleep. She also thinks all our problems would be magically solved if he wasn't swaddled. God knows, I'd love him to be in a sleeping bag - but anyone with a fussy baby knows what a lifesaver swaddling is!

Way to go, mum.

Enoon could you explain how you do the shush pat? Which bit do you pat? It only seems to work for ds if I hold him, never in the cot.

Blonde we are still swaddling too. DS can only manage an hour or so without it.

We had an awful night. DH and I got three broken hours' sleep each. Lots of crying (from DS and me) and woke up this morning to find I have come down with a D&V bug. Feel terrible, and v guilty because DH had to stay home from work this morning because I was dashing to the loo every 15 minutes. Luckily DH got DS down for a nap and he slept for nearly two hours so at least I got some rest.

Just don't know what to do - DS screamed for nearly an hour at bedtime yesterday as I tried to settle him in the cot, and I feel so bad about that. It's not even making any difference to his sleep, so not sure I should continue, but then again feel like we should see it through for a few days now we've started it.

beingblonde we're nearly neighbours :) ignore your mum!

sal how long does he go in the day? I personally would try feeding more in the day - I try every two hours in the afternoon to get him full for the night. I agree though, just had jabs & cold is all bets off I think - they are always more clingy when poorly ime.

We are having some sucess with settling, he happily goes to sleep in my arms on his own, no rocking, shhing etc. He still wakes a lot from 3 onwards though, but easier to settle than he was.

Sorry you're ill count hope you're better soon.

Sounds grim count, hope you get better soon

Cos- he will go 3 hours usually max. Trying to feed more often past couple days so maybe things will improve. He is def v clingy today though so don't think time to be changing things

Blondie- agree ignore yr mum! I saw mine today who comes from the 'formula will cure all' camp. Hey ho.

Get well soon count, that's miserable...

I pat her tummy twice, like a heart beat and sit and shhhhh in time. I don't do or say anything else. She does sometimes get very upset, but when she gets really bad, she normally then falls asleep shortly after.

Doesn't feel good upsetting her, but I know she's tired and needs to sleep, and having a mum who's insane with sleep deprivation was no good for her either.....

Bumper and count - hope things get better soon - sounds like you're both having a really hard time.
Enoon - do you notice a difference when she falls alseep like this in how long she sleeps for? I think when we get back home we're going to have to implement a new plan. We're having to try and keep DS's crying to a minimum so we don't wake my 11 month old neice who's unwell at the moment. Fed DS loads last night and was knackered this morning. I've cracked and started him on baby rice this week. I know it won't make a difference to his sleep but I think he's ready for it.

Pidgin - I'm back on the dairy today after 4 days off it. DS has fed to sleep tonight (probably not a good start) so will see how it goes. I'm hoping it isn't a dairy thing as it'll be such an issue when weaning him. I thought it would be more information for the dr though if I could say I saw the effect more than once though if it is a problem.

Has anyone else started weaning by the way (apart from bumper)? I thought I would try and be guided by him or wait until 6 months. He has been really interested in food (though he's interested in my mobile too and I wouldn't feed him that). He's been really hungry lately - can't seem to feed enough but what swung it for me is that he's dropped about 10 centiles in weight. The HV said it was normal round about now (and that it'd be ok to start weaning) but it's made me a bit paranoid about not feeding in the night. Can't believe it's been over 5 months and I still don't know where I am with feeding. Feel I was more in control when he was a month old .

Not yet, judy, but probably going to start this weekend or next - DS is 10 days off 6 months. We're going to do a mix of BLW/finger foods and mooshy stuff. Feels v strange indeed that he'll be eating soon!

Well, so far tonight we've had two three-hour stretches, thank goodness. Takes me so long to get to sleep myself these days, though.

ahhhhhh

naps are starting to happen relatively stress free, although the morning one is very iffy and in general they are shorter than they used to be.

Night time sleep, we're still managing to feed every 3 hours for half the night (and then a couple of 2 hours) but she is still waking up a lot inbetween and needing resettling. Except for the last two nights instead of just going to sleep without any problems (the one saving grace in this whole sleep business) we has taken a a couple of hours to go off. Us needing to go in every 10-20 mins, lay her back down and walk away.

A good thing is that she's not been waking up to 6:30 for the last couple of days. We can't have it all hey :)

sorry more a vent than anything. Good luck for everyone tonight (even though you're all half way through it now)

Hi judy,

At nights, there was definitely a big difference in how long she went without getting up once she started going to sleep in her cot rather than feeding to sleep. Doesn't make much much difference for naps. She is getting increasingly easier to get down for naps now though, although sometimes there are tears, because I am consistent, it doesn't take long and I am much calmer. The routine is helping too.

I did the dreamfeed yesterday at 10pm for the first time and she slept through!!!! First time ever!! I feel a fraud on this thread now, but happy to share the sleep consultant's advice.

Narmada- I have used millpond FYI...

Thanks Enoon, we will definitely use a sleep clinic I think when my son's reflux and feeding issues are under control. Glad you had success. I wouldn't hesitate if he was totally well, but being as he isn't I kind of feel it's unfair to do anything too drastic....

Hi Narmada,

It's definitely been worth it for us. Best to wait till your ds is better- I think it would be harder to be consistent. You don't have to do anything too drastic though, we have had some tears, but not many. It's mostly been changing the routine that has made the difference (although dd was self settling after doing the ncss for a couple of months first, so not such a big change for her).

Hope ds gets better soon :-)

Thanks enoon, he is still miles and miles from being able to self-settle and you're right, it would be hard to be consistent with him at the moment. I don't mind a bit of crying - we ended up there with DD1 after doing the NCSS for a while with limited success. I think she was just one of those babies that needed to learn the harder way!

How's everyone doing? Glad things are better penguin.

Enoon hope the plan's still working out for you.

Our nights are marginally better with DS doing three-hour stretches much more reliably. After a blip where he screamed for 45 minutes at bedtime for a few days, he has now started to sort of self-settle from wide awake at bedtime (and during the night if he's still awake from a feed). I say 'sort of' because we don't leave the room: one of us sits next to him with a hand on his tummy/holding his hand until he goes to sleep, but we don't shush or pat or do anything else. We just switch the light off, he wriggles about a bit and gets comfy, and goes off. It's quite amazing really.

It's still not making much difference to his nighttime sleep, though - he doesn't really show any signs of being able to settle himself if he wakes up. I'm wondering if that's because he goes to sleep with mummy or daddy sat next to him and then wakes up alone and panics. So once we've established the bedtime hand-on-tummy settling as a regular thing, we'll have to gradually withdraw so we're just putting him down, saying goodnight and leaving him to it. No idea how we do that though as he'll only go to sleep in the dark so he won't be able to see us even if we start moving chairs closer to the door etc!

We've also been trying to wean him off swaddling, with mixed success. He can settle without it now but can't stay asleep as long, especially during the day. His daytime naps have been rubbish lately now the days are brighter so we've put blackout curtains up in his room which seems to have helped.

What a palaver, eh. My friend posted a video on facebook last night of her jiggling her 8 m.o. DD about to keep her awake for her bath and bottle - her DD was just dozing off in her arms right in the middle of the living room, head nodding and everything - my friend said she was tired from a busy weekend! Blimey, if my DS was tired from a busy weekend he'd be wired, bouncing off the walls and probably shrieking ...