The 'newborn - sleep nightmare' continuation thread, Cosmosis, count, emo etc. Still a sleep nightmare?

[Bumperlicious]

Just thought I'd catch up with all of you from the last thread to see if now we've moved on from the newborn stage things are any better?

Dd2 is nearly 5 months and sleep is still hit and miss. She is not good at sleeping when out and about so mornings are either spent at home or I choose to socialise and spend the rest of the day fighting to get her to sleep.

She still rarely goes down in the evening despite me trying for 1.5 hours. Eventually goes down 11.30ish and still often wakes twice a night

Am knackered, no end in sight. How's everyone else doing?

Well, I'm all set up for a shit night I think. First settled DS so he fell asleep in my arms around 7.20pm and at 8pm he woke as expected. Managed to rock him back to sleep quite quickly but he woke 10 mins later screaming. Couldn't calm him so thought might as well try and do shush pat in the cot as I can't calm him anyway (little inspired by you count but not in a very well thought out way . Was picking him up in between to see if I could calm him and on about the third pick up he latched onto my cheek. So have fed him to sleep and plonked him back in the cot....probably got 20 mins before he wakes again and again and again....
At the moment I can get him to sleep the first time quite calmly but he nearly always wakes up screaming after 40 mins or so. Really think we need to go back to properly doing something but not sure when. We're going to stay with my brother and his family next week and don't want to start something and then have to stop because we're away but don't want to have him screaming all evening either while we're there as brother and SIL work and have an 11 month old.
I wouldn't be bothered about him self settling if he stayed asleep for longer than 90mins but it is really killing me the lack of sleep at the moment. Might try PUPD / shush pat on Friday as we would have 5 nights to see if it worked before we went away. I need to cut down on the rocking - we tried shush pat a few weeks ago and the first couple of nights were awful. The second night he screamed for 2 hours solid until I gave him a dummy in desperation. We're still using the dummy now and started rocking him to calm him before sleep but think that has slipped into rocking him to sleep which is making it worse. Does anyone else use a dummy? It's cut down on the crying but I think it's making the nights worse. Sorry for rambling on - trying to work out what to do and make sense of where we are at the moment.

Welcome raisingmrc as well. I've been really keen on doing this a no cry way and I think I've sabotaged every attempt we've had at implementing a new regime when the crying has got too much. DH was the one who was tougher in our relationship (know some people have said before their OH couldn't cope with the crying). I think for us it was because DH didn't have the option of feeding to calm him and we were quite good before about swapping every 20 mins when trying to get him to sleep (even feeding didn't always work for us). I'm starting to think with DS and some babies it's not going to happen without some crying and I need to accept that.

judy we are the same about crying. I think we just decided that we had to try something and stick it out. Because DS cries so much anyway when going to sleep, we figured it didn't make much difference. The thing I was certain of was that I didn't want to leave him alone to cry. I just couldn't bear that, and I don't think he'd go to sleep that way anyway.

He managed 3 hours this evening. Just feeding him now.

That's great count. Dd has pretty much been asleep all evening. Well, I have gone up and fed her back to sleep 3 times, but has been asleep in between. I've just left her on my bed so not tried to move her.

For those who have dc who wake regularly, as in at regular intervals, have you tried 'wake to sleep'?

Hmm, well, not such a good night. DS has been up every couple of hours, including a 1hr stretch where DH was trying to settle him without a feed. Think the problem has been wind tonight, as we heard him do a colossal fart just before the first waking, and there have been loads of smaller emissions since.

So not out of the woods yet.

Two encouraging signs, though. Firstly, he didn't feed to sleep after the 10pm-ish waking, but I was able to put him in his cot and settle him from awake in just a couple of minutes. Secondly, at one point during the night he let out quite a loud cry, so DH went in to sort him out, but he'd gone back to sleep on his own. This is very different from usual - DS has always been a silent sleeper, so any noise at all meant he was wide awake. So he must be learning to settle himself.

Still knackered, though, as have basically been up and down most of the night. Urgh.

Does having a 1 year old (well in a few days), make me not qualify for sleep support She is far from a new born, but apparently she doesn't that.

Night 1 of gradual retreat last night. Put ds to sleep by rocking him (in a horizontal position, rather than on my shoulder as usual). Tried to only feed in the night if I thought he cd genuinely be hungry rather than shoving him on the breast as an automatic response to him waking.

Plan is to do this for another night, then progress to holding him still rather than rocking, then holding him still in his cot, then with only one arm round him in his cot... etc.

He is up and feeding now, not sure I will bother trying to get him back to sleep, though I could certainly use it!

Yuck yuck yuck. Rubbish night. Up every 1.5-2 hrs. Why why why, when we've had two good nights? It's just bloody cruel. My horrible cold isn't helping matters either, I just want to crawl under a rock.

Anyone have a good night?!

Count it does seem that your DS is getting the picture... fingers crossed!

PenguinArmy of course you're welcome - none of ours are new anymore...:o

We started well last night -seems like ds is starting to get the bedtime routine. He fed to sleep (I know, I know, but it's the only way he drops off with me! If I hold him in any other position he roots and roots and eventually latches on to whatever's available) and then after an hour I was able to slip him into his amby hammock. He stayed there for 55 minutes until he farted and woke up.

Of course, I had to stay next to the hammock and jig it up and down every time he so much as breathed, but still!

All went to pot a bit after that with frequent wakings and then at 4am he had a coughing fit so bad that he threw up everywhere and had a poo at the same time

Oh well, I'm chuffed at the first bit so feeling quite +ve this morning. Off to see the paed this afternoon to see if there is possibly any underlying medical problem ruining his sleeping [hopeful-in-a-guilty-way emoticon]

fromheretomaternity - did you have much crying? I'm probably being really thick but I don't understand what gradual retreat actually means in practice?

DS has been feeding loads the last day or so. Is anyone else finding this? He's 23 weeks today I think. Maybe the 6-month growth spurt?

He's just refused to take a morning nap - DH spent half an hour trying to get him down, and is now muttering darkly about it "all going tits up" etc. Like one night of sleep training is going to magically transform DS into a paragon of snooziness ...

Well after my mega moan last night DS was actually ok last night - still bad obviously but maybe even slightly better than usual. After I fed him at 8.30pm he went to sleep quite quickly and didn't wake up until 11.45 . Funny how your DS was noisy last night but didn't wake as we had the same thing - I went up to bed at 10pm and he was crying but not like he was about to really start going (people are always saying to me,"Oh you can tell when they are going to startt screaming and when they're not" and I never got it because he always screamed but this did sound different). He still woke at 1.30am, 2.30am and then fed at 3.30am and took an hour and a bit of screaming then to go back to sleep (DS is sometimes harder to settle in the night when I feed him ). He then slept until 7am .
Not entirely sure why this all happened. Don't think it's because I stopped dairy at 1pm yesterday afternoon. I switched off all white noise as well. Will see how tonight goes....
Bumper - I've tried wake to sleep for naps and not got anywhere. It's a fine balance between disturbing them enough but not too much. If he starts waking less frequently I might try it in the night.
Count - sounds like it's still going in the right direction. Hope tonight goes well.
Plasticspoon - hope the paed was useful. How did you get a referral? I think if I understand right gradual withdrawal is that you stop doing one thing every so often and hope they don't notice until you're just left with a kiss and a cuddle or whatever and they go to sleep. I really need to remember to be consistent with the very beginning of nighttime as you need to keep doing what you want to be left with IFYSIM. Gradual withdrawal sounds like how I hoped I could sleep train DS but could never get him to sleep the same way more than a few nights in a row so just wasn't possible.
Seems I am incapable of writing short posts at the moment - sorry!

Oh well - we had a very different night to what I expected when I posted. Planned to do a v gentle shush pat thing which had worked to get him to sleep with minimal crying - though just for an hour or less, then he was back in the bed with us.

He wasn't having any of it, so instead we started on this sleep plan from the Andrea Grace book - basically comforting in the cot until they fall asleep. DP and I tried to do it last weekend and abandonned after 40 mins. Think we were a bit more motivated last night due to hearing about my friend's daughter who fell out of the bed (co-sleeping). We have a stone fireplace so it does not bear thinking about if DS fell out of bed.

Anyway, it was a horrific night - we abandonned the attempt at 12.20 after 2 wake ups, 1.5 hours and 1 hour of crying, and 2.5 hours of sleep. He slept with us after that.

I'm now really torn - keep going in the hope it gets better, and also so that last night wasn't just putting DS through all that for nothing. We do really want to stop co-sleeping at some point too.

Or somehow get our sleeping arrangements 100% safe so that we can continue co-sleeping and maybe sleep train when DS is a bit older and seems less vulnerable (though maybe there will never be a "right time").

DS went off v easily in the cot again. Was v surprised, as his naps were an utter disaster today. He wasn't interested in sleeping - just wanted to hang off my boob all day

I did sort of have to flatten myself on top of him in the cot this time. He really is the most fidgety baby I've ever seen. He did start to complain a bit, but a bit of shushing and he was away. Hoping for a better night tonight ...

Count - my DS is also fidget king. To still him you have to hold him really tight and bounce on the edge of the bed quite vigoorously. I am wondering if fidgeting is his response to the movement stopping....kind of like saying 'get moving please' but non-verbally! DD1 was the same, a terrible fidget, but oddly she stopped with the fidgeting at exactly the time she learned to self-settle. Glad your DS is going down of an evening. That must be fantastic for you - well done .

I dunno about anyone else but after the day I've had wrestling this one to sleep for naps I need

Bugger, he just woke up. Went back to sleep easily though with a bit of a cuddle. I think he'd somehow managed to get a hand out of the swaddle, the little rascal. Weaning him off swaddling will be the next task! Hopefully narmada he'll just grow out of the fidgeting like your DD!

thanks for the welcome

here is our sleep story

DD goes down for night time fine. Naps were great but are now hit and miss. We still however just put her down, she either cries for a minute or lays there quietly. Often atm however she doesn't go to sleep but in 20 mins starts to cry and we start the process over. We ended up putting her down and leaving her as it had got to the stage where we were unable to calm her and she more worked up with us there. She's too interested in everything

At night atm we have multiple waking every 1.5-2hrs. tbf if I feed her she goes straight off. From 6-12, we alternate between DH settling her and me feeding her and we're back to me feeding every 2 hours. From 12 onwards if it has been 2 hours I feed her. This approach has worked well in the past, after a while she stopped waking in between feeds and this leads to longer stretches after 12.

What messed us up was visiting the UK for two weeks, where she also got 3 new teeth. When we got back, we were all ill for a week, so didn't have the energy or the inclination to do anything about it. Her naps had been 1-2 hours, these are hit and miss but getting back there.

Since I work, she doesn't have milk in the day (before that it was a minimal amount). Also she has been a slow weight gainer. This has meant I've always been reluctant to not feed her in the night. She is getting weighed at her 1 year check up and hopefully she'll be back on the centile chart.

plasticspoon this is what I am doing. Was recommended this method by a sleep consultant from Haringey childrens services:

Give DS his feed, then make sure he is awake and get him to sleep by rocking him in my arms (step 1 below). Once he is asleep wait about 10 minutes, still rocking him in my arms, so he has a chance to go into deep sleep. Then put him down in moses basket / cot.

After a few days, move onto the next step.

Use the same sleep routine at the start of the night, during night wakings, and for naps at home.

The steps are:

1 Rock to sleep
2 Hold in arms till asleep
3 Hold in arms in the moses basket/cot
4 Hold in one arm in the moses basket / cot
...and it goes on from there (have been promised full details in the post but not here yet).

The idea is that they gradually learn how to sleep separately, not too much crying involved.

I am only on night 2 and not much has happened yet except that I have stopped feeding to sleep which is an advance. I am also trying to only feed in the night if I really think he is hungry.

Think it may be quite hard to move between the steps, and I am not managing to do the routine at nap times as I also have a toddler. I am also finding that after 10 mins ds is not deep asleep, but he is usually asleep enough for me to put him down and then just rock / shush him to make sure he drops off again.

Will report back on what happens... though nb I don't think his sleep problem to start with is quite as bad as many other posters here.

raisingmrsc I tried comforting in the cot too - absolutely nothing comforted him - he screamed for an hour two nights running. Maybe if I'd persevered he would have got the hang of it - but I couldn't help worrying he was getting traumatised and end up hating his basket. Plus not possible to do anything involving too much crying at night as it would have woken ds1.

well after all that had a rubbish night- ds1 was up with croup and was so tired I ended up trying (and failing) to feed back to sleep.

Sorry about the rubbish night fromheretomaternity. Realy interested in the gradual retreat details though.
We had a better night than we've had for a couple of weeks. DS went to sleep at 7pm and woke 45 mins later screaming. We had decided we would get him up but he was pretty grizzly and unhappy. I took him upstairs and fed him and when he didn't fall asleep DH took over and settled him by 8.30pm and he didn't wake until 11.45pm which for us is great. The rest of the night was ok but not great - woke another 4 or 5 times but was much easier to settle - only 2 night time feeds.
Can't believe it's cutting out dairy that's making the difference. Maybe it's because we're managing to consistently get him to sleep the same way each night. Hope other people's nights were ok.

fromhere - sorry to hear about your DS :( - definitely right to abandon the plan while he's ill, but frustrating all the same. Hope he's better soon.

Another strange night for us. DS slept for 3.5 hours in the evening (with one waking an hour in when he took only a minute or two to settle). But then he woke up loads after that. I only did two feeds - at 10:30pm and 3am - but poor DH was up three times resettling him after random wakings. Makes a change for him to be up more than me, but obviously this isn't sustainable as he's back at work on Monday. Again he said DS was very farty so it sounds like he's having wind issues. Also DS let out a couple of yelps in the night but went back to sleep, so he must be settling himself.

Not sure what to do really. I think I need to stop feeding to sleep, make sure I've got all his wind up and put him down awake in the cot (as with bedtime) but that's going to take some serious willpower!

It is so nice that he is settling so well at bedtime though, after weeks of trying to rock a screaming baby to sleep every evening. It's just the nights are still so tough.

Glad things are still going so well count. Did you do the same bedtime routine as you described yesterday? Sounds amazing if you can put DS down in his cot awake after one night of PUPD. Really pleased for you.

Yeah, same thing. He woke up five times between 11 and 7 though, so still not brilliant! In fact I don't think the PU/PD bit had any effect really. It ended up being more like the 'comfort in the cot' method that has been mentioned above. The PU/PD bit at the beginning just seemed to piss him off!

Oh crap, count. Maybe it was a blip.

Nothing wrong with comfort in cot method, I did that with DD1 - there was crying but it did work eventually.

DS has his millionth illness and a sky-high temperature and was up till 11pm (not at all unusual) and then again at 3.30, 4.30, 5.15, 7, 8 ( a bit unusual). And my in-laws are coming today. And the house is a hole.