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Stuck in a never ending sleep regression

470 replies

PDog · 24/08/2010 21:24

I am beyond exhausted. DD is coming up to 8.5mo and this has been going on for 2 months.

It seems to alternate between horrendous nights or horrendous days with horrendous bedtimes. She just can't switch off - I can't take my eyes off her for a second because she is not happy unless she rolling/grabbing something/putting something in her mouth.

When she does sleep, I have to feed her to sleep but as soon as I try to get her in her cot she wakes up and starts rolling.

She has only had 30 mins sleep all day today and gets more and more hyper. It then takes between 1-3 hours to get her to bed and she will be up to 2-3 times and ready to go by 6am (despite still been shattered).

Anyone offer any advice?

Or anyone in the same boat who wants to moan share experiences.

OP posts:
Suchanamateur · 06/11/2010 07:47

Hello everyone - glad to see good nights for some. Thanks Angeldog for the advice on naps. We tried it for a day and it worked quite well but then The Rivers of Snot also began here and DS seems to have been getting tired quicker in the day so back to 3 naps for a bit. Will try when he gets a bit better- he now has a racking (sp?) cough which is making sleep even more fun, poor little sprog.

IC - my DS rarely gets more than 2 hours in the day and seems perfectly content on that. I on the other hand, would love a bit more time to stem the tide of chaos that is overtaking our house.

Hope everyone has an unusually good weekends sleep and the bangs don't keep the babies (or their mummies) up.

InmaculadaConcepcion · 07/11/2010 19:18

How did you manage through the fireworks?

Thanks for the reassurance, ADog - I figured it was a reasonable amount of sleep, but it's nice to have someone else agree - especially when they've read all the books on the subject! Smile

DD's pattern of wake-ups, resettles and wake-for-the-days are continuing a bit random in terms of times (she was up at 06.20 today), but still mostly only two resettles between bed-time and 06.00 or so. I always told myself that this was the amount I was willing to live with and so I am.

Sorry to hear about the snot rivers, I hope your LOs get well soon. DH has a cold and chest infection, poor lamb and I'm hoping he won't pass it on to me and DD... [fingers crossed emoticon]]

Well, 2 naps seems to be the order of the day now, although the earlier wake-up today threw a slight spanner in the works, so we went for two short re-charges and a 1hr20 one of the perambulatory variety. So far so good.

Hope you all had an ok weekend.

AngelDog · 10/11/2010 19:35

Fireworks were no problem at all here. :)

SAA, hope your DD's cold is better soon & IC, that your DH improves and doesn't give it to you.

DS is on the mend but has had it badly and completely lost his voice for a couple of days. He had a couple of dreadful nights, especially the evenings, when the cough woke him every 15-30 mins. But then he did some long stretches after I went to bed. :)

Naps have been everywhere - we've been muddling through without reference to the usual routine. One day he even had 2 x 1.5 hour naps, he was so shattered from disturbed nights.

Unfortunately I've now got the cold and am feeling sorry for myself. :(

We seem to be consistently having the 1.5 hours awake in the middle of the night again which is probably due to the second half of the 9 month sleep regression. On the positive side, he goes back to sleep really quickly & easily once we get to 1.5 hours, and isn't waking early - today he woke at 8.30 (usually 6.30)!

Wishing good sleep to everyone else. :)

curlyLJ · 10/11/2010 22:17

Evening folks.

Sorry to hear you have a cold AD hope you feel better soon.

Sorry things are still a bit random for you IC

Well, things not great here - I well and truly jinxed it for myself I'm sorry to say... Friday night (after the great week last week) things went downhill and there's no sign of improvement yet. Think we may just be hitting the fussy period before the 37wk developmental spurt as DD is now 34 weeks...

IIRC she had a spate of sleeping really, really well just before the last fussy period. I think they lull you into a false belief that things are getting better,, right before they kick you where it hurts again Grin

We have had lots of 1.5 hrs awake in the night episodes (in fact Saturday night it was 2.5 hrs Sad) although she didn't do it last night... Bedtimes seem to have become horrendous again too and are taking up to 1.5hrs Confused. I didn't get DD to sleep until 9.30 this evening as we have also had to put bedtimes back to about 8pm as naps have gone haywire too and she is having 3 (short) naps at the moment while we get thru this.

The fireworks didn't help matters at the w/e and we had 3 nights of it here where I live. I had to put her white noise machine on really loud until really late when they had stopped, which was way past midnight on Friday and gone 11pm on Sat and Sun Angry.

Fingers crossed for a good night for us all....

Kaymer · 11/11/2010 06:44

Hi ladies,

Hope you don't mind me gatecrashing. So pleased I found this thread. Have read through about half of it looking for good ideas and found plenty. But before I start implementing, can I ask a question of those of you who have phased out feeding to sleep in the night?

Some background first - 9mo DD was a good sleeper until 5.5 months - sometimes she would go 8 hours at a stretch - and since then has woken once every hour or two hours during the night. To be fair we've been under a lot of stress traveling, renovating and emigrating during that time, but we've been settled now in one place for around six weeks and haven't seen any improvement to speak of.

I got into the habit of feeding her to sleep each time due to general exhaustion and because if I don't offer the boob she immediately launches into a loud, loud complaint- and we have always had others living / staying in the house with us. She also doesn't have her own bedroom unfortunately.

So my question: will refusing the boob in the night end up with her waking less, in your experience, or am I just likely to make my nights harder? Any help soooooo much appreciated!

InmaculadaConcepcion · 11/11/2010 10:57

AD, sounds rotten all round, really... I hope your cold clears up soon and DS gets back on form.

I'm not going to mention colds or the lack thereof in Casa IC in case the Mumsnet jinx strikes, so I'll let you work out for yourselves how we are health-wise Grin

Sounds like you're having a tough time of it too, curly... let's hope that developmental spurt will finish its mischief ASAP.

Welcome, Kaymer!
I haven't totally phased out feeding-to-sleep overnight, but put DD down awake after her bedtime feed so she self-settles - that makes all the difference.
I did a couple of nights of refusing to feed her (or do anything much as it just wound her up more) until early morning and that seemed to break the escalating cycle of overnight feeds and awakenings.
Now she usually wakes twice overnight and I feed her then. I've realised that if it's not beyond 04.30 am, I can often cuddle her back to sleep if she's refusing to settle, despite the feed. I did so a couple of times last night and do so (without offering a feed) if she wakes before midnight. It's still early days for that, but quite promising as she wouldn't even let me do that a few weeks back.
Personally, I'm happy to do a couple of night feeds for the time being, but it's whatever you can manage, really.

Anyway, I would say, following Elizabeth NoCrySleepSolution Pantley's advice, try and get the crucial bedtime stuff sorted out and the rest may well start to fall into place too... fingers crossed!

Kaymer · 11/11/2010 20:04

Ok, thanks IC! Will try to get her self-settling in the evening as a first step. I think I'll wait until next week as DH is away over the weekend and I am too tired right now to do anything proactive or constructive by myself. Survival mode only grrrrrr. I really don't know how solo mums cope.

I would be more than happy to do a couple of feeds a night - she definitely seems hungry. Ravenous even. But there's a world of difference between two feeds and eg last night's five. Sad

So if (when) she cries when I'm trying to settle her awake, do you recommend PUPD? I have this sneaking suspicion that DD is what you guys were calling an 'increaser' - I suppose I need to steel myself for tears in that case? Gulp.

InmaculadaConcepcion · 11/11/2010 20:09

Try and see what happens! PU/PD just wound my DD up even more, but it definitely works for a lot of babies, might do for yours. Then again, I may have bailed out of PU/PD too quickly as apparently 50 or so times the first nights is common....
Anyway, good luck!

AngelDog · 11/11/2010 20:28

Will be back tomorrow / when I can with some suggestions for you, Kaymer, as my DS is an increaser and what works for him is different from IC.

Best dash, though - he's calling.

PDog · 11/11/2010 20:47

Welcome Kaymer. Sorry, can't help with the night weaning as I am still feeding my 11mo DD to sleep. I just don't have the energy for it at the minute and she tends to fight me when I refuse boob .

Hope you are feeling better soon AD, it is rotten when you are ill isn't it?

I feel for you Curly I really do. Hope you see some improvement soon.

No trouble with fireworks here, luckily IC but troubles of another kind.

I've been ill (again) and DD has responded by waking 4 times a night . Are they due a growth spurt at 11mo? She is eating tons and seems to be gulping lots when she wakes too. Going to have to bite the bullet and try night weaning soon - I'm not coping well with the lack of sleep and work and DD is still only napping for 30mins at nursery. Need to break the feed to sleep habit soonish I think.

OP posts:
AngelDog · 11/11/2010 20:47

Actually, can you let me know how she naps? Will be back tomorrow - I must get to bed at a reasonable time!

Kaymer · 12/11/2010 05:02

Ha ha PDog you're not a wimp - DD fights me too. My proposed solution involves DH doing all the work while I skulk off to (try to) sleep elsewhere Grin

But seriously, it seems the natural thing to do to feed a baby to sleep - babies love to suck themselves to sleep so presumably there must be an evolutionary reason for it / benefit (?!). My ideal scenario would be to keep feeding her to sleep at nap time and at night-time (because it's working and we both like it) and just find a way to stop having to get up so many times to her in the night as I'm sick of being constantly exhausted.

I'm not sure I'll have the heart to let her cry when it comes down to it - I tried once and lasted approximately seven minutes, and I was holding her for most of that! But getting more and more desperate....

Thanks AngelDog for any tips! DD naps pretty well, but only if we're at home. I lie down on bed with her and she feeds herself to sleep. Usually around 10am for one hour and then at 2pm for 1-2 hours (often I have to resettle her half-way through). Of course, that's on a good day. If I'm out and about it all goes haywire. I haven't noticed her naps influencing her night-time sleep on any given day though. I'm up for trying your earlier suggestion on this thread of starting the first nap a bit earlier to see if that makes a difference.

Anyway, moaning baby calling....

Beavermum · 12/11/2010 05:13

Pdog can you take day off work and still put DD in nursery then go home and go to bed yourself? When DS was same age I was exhausted for simialr reasons and just didnot have energy to do the night weaning. Once I had had that stretch of sleep life was better and gave me energy to get on with it.

Hope all ok soon

InmaculadaConcepcion · 12/11/2010 11:14

Naps, ah... pah!!!

Tried for a cot nap today, repeated the night time routine (sans bath), fed her all sleepy, put her in the cot and...

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH!!

Tried all the tricks that work overnight for the next 45 mins or so, then gave up feeling stressed.

Damn it, a walk in crappy November weather is preferable to a bloody screamathon for the sake of half an hour (if we're lucky).

Especially if DH does it Grin

InmaculadaConcepcion · 12/11/2010 11:15

PS another unmumsnetty hug for PDog...

AngelDog · 12/11/2010 20:42

PDog, sorry to hear things are rubbish - and sorry for appearing to ignore your post yesterday: I didn't see it when I put my last one up.

IC, I've never been able to work out why hugs are unmumsnetty (although I know they are!). Can you enlighten me?

Kaymer, from the fact that your DD used to be able to feed to sleep and sleep longer, in theory (ha!) she should be able to do it again. I'm guessing that the needing to suck-to-sleep association is likely your problem, as it was my DS's.

Your naps sound good so I doubt that chronic overtiredness is a problem. I find the link between day and night sleep is that general overtiredness = generally frequent waking, rather than one day necessarily affecting the following night.

Getting her to self-settle at bedtime would probably help (although she might still wake) but if she's a tension increaser, it will probably involve a fair bit of crying. (See here on how to work out if she's an increaser or releaser).

I'd try to introduce some sleep cues to use alongside a different method of getting her to sleep. I sing a song, but you can use words or even a CD. Pick one you are happy to hear over and over again! Sing it when she's dropping off to sleep (I did this during naps). After 4 days or so she should associate it with feeling drowsy.

You could do the same with something like patting. It might be hard to do while she's feeding to sleep, but you could try patting her for a minute after she's unlatched. Then she'll associate the feeling with being relaxed and sleepy / asleep.

The Pantley Pull-Off technique here from the No-Cry Sleep Solution is worth a try, although it takes a while. I'd use this at the same time as singing the song or whatever. The idea is that when the LO finally drops off, your nipple isn't in their mouth.

By the time I'd finished doing all of this, DS still needed at least one night feed, but he'd feed, unlatch himself, roll over and go off. I was amazed - it was just like Elizabeth Pantley described.

I reckon that if you're there, she won't be fobbed off with a feed so you'll probably need to get your DH to help. (I'm lucky in that DS will settle for me without feeding). Perhaps you could camp out on the sofa for a few nights?

Your DH can then try to get her back to sleep without being fed. Rocking or frantic jiggling / bouncing works for my DS. Sometimes he needs to be patted assertively on the back at the same time. This is the time to use your music cue to help her feel drowsy.

If after 15 mins she's not showing any sign of going to sleep, give up and feed, then try again either the next waking or the next day.

When I started doing this, I could sometimes pat DS back to sleep without picking him up - but only if I got to him the moment he woke. His first waking is always 45 mins after bedtime so I'd lurk there ready to pat him at the first sniff. Now I need to pick him up & rock him but again, it's easiest to get him back off if he's not had chance to really wake up properly.

The problem I then had was that I couldn't put him down without him waking and crying. That was when I did PUPD. So it'd go DS wakes - pick up - rock to sleep - put down - cry - pick up - rock to sleep - put down - cry - pick up etc.

I'm not sure that's how PUPD is 'officially' supposed to work, but it worked for me. At first it took over 20 mins to be able to put him down, but eventually I was just picking him up once. As he got more used to it, I could just rock him till he stopped crying rather than rock him till he was completely asleep.

When I did put him down, I'd pat him and keep singing the sleepy music, which helped.

Doing this every time she wakes would probably be a big job for your DH if he's not used to getting up at night. He could try doing it for the evening wakings first and then go back to feeding after you go to bed. That's likely to take longer to have an effect, though.

I think that needing help to go to sleep is more of an issue than feeding to sleep itself. So at the moment, I feed DS to sleep at bedtime, then he wakes after every sleep cycle during the evening. When that happens, I rock him to sleep but it doesn't stop him waking next time. The PUPD bit seemed to make the crucial difference.

You may find that it doesn't work - 9 months is a difficult time with the developmental spurts going on at around 37 and 46 weeks. If it doesn't work, don't despair and try again a week or two later when your DD may find it easier to settle.

I'm aiming to try all of the above again in a few weeks' time once we're well clear of the next developmental spurt. Can't wait! Grin

Shout if any of that doesn't make sense.

Good luck, whatever you decide to do. :)

curlyLJ · 13/11/2010 12:43

Hi all

AD hope the developmental spurt isn't causing you too many problems, hopefully as you say, you can go back to what you were doing before soon...

IC sounds like you are having a naff time with naps. It's awful isn't it, when you just want an hour to get some bits done, chill out, mumsnet etc and they just wont sleep!

Sorry to hear you are having a tough time Pdog, hope you feel better soon too.

Welcome Kaymer and Beavermum!

Well, I don't know what's going on here, but yesterday was pretty crappy and last night was utter sht. DD didn't nap well in the day and seemed to be fighting sleep/me all day. Last night she went down fairly OK for DH (He puts her to bed now if he is here) at 8pm and slept till 11.15ish. At this point she didn't seem to want to re-settle without a feed, so I fed her and then the screaming/crying ensued and she didn't go back to sleep until 3am* Shock Confused Sad.
She was trying to sleep it seemed, but just couldn't relax and get off. A couple of times she appeared to be asleep, only to wake again in 5 mins. We tried everything from rocking, shushing, patting, singing, leaving her to cry (which was awful) and nothing worked until she was positively exhausted... Then she woke again at 6am for another feed when she settled OK and then up for the day at 8.30 Needless to say I am shattered...

THings have been up and down for a week now...DD will be 35wks/8months on Monday so I was wondering if this the start of the 9 month sleep regression?? AD???? Is the 37wk dev spurt part of the same thing, or are they seperate? Oh God I can't take another month of this...

Hope everyone else had a better night Smile

InmaculadaConcepcion · 13/11/2010 19:59

Hi Beavermum - sorry for ignoring you before!

Nice to get all that detail, ADog, thanks!

I think are unmumsnetty because they are in frequent use over on netmums, which many mums on here tend to find a bit too fluffy for their tastes. Hugs are always being sent on MN, though - I think they're allowed as long as they're unmumsnetty ones Smile

Night wasn't too bad here, although I woke DD up by coughing an hour after she did her customary wake and feed around 01.00ish. She went back to sleep after a few goes of PU/PD, I didn't even offer her a feed and she didn't do the love-bitey thing on my shoulder out of frustration that I wasn't offering it, as she has in the recent past. Which suggests PU/PD could now work if I want to use it as a night-weaning tool. Having said that, so long as DD sticks to 2 wakings max (if I don't accidentally add another one, can't blame her for that...) I'm not desperate to night-wean her as yet. Besides, I think it would be better to wait until the Week 46 leap is safely behind us before attempting anything like that.

Wishing everyone some sleep - especially curly, sounds like you're having a really tough time at the moment.

21.00....time for bed, said Zebedee...

curlyLJ · 14/11/2010 18:18

IC glad you had a better night...2 wakings sounds like bliss to me atm!!

All that info is great, thanks AD - please tell me you have a suggestion for getting thru this sleep regression (if that's what it is... I really don't know where to start as I am starting to lose it with DD's sleep and am sooooo exhausted. DD is 8m tomorrow but her sleep is just going from bad to worse. These extended night wakings are hellish.

Last night DH insisted suggested that we let her cry a bit. I didn't really want to do it, but tried as a last resort for some chance of some sleep. Every time I went in to her she was up on her arms and had turned herself around in the cot. Over an hour later and she was still going at it and was getting distressed/upset by this point...so I gave in and fed her (it was time for a feed by then anyway).

DH got fed up with it as he had to be up early, so he took himself off to the spare room and closed the door while I dealt with her. She eventually went back to sleep afterwards with a bit of patting, but had probably worn herself out anyway with all the crying.

Has anyone got any suggestions?? DH and I are arguing all the time and I need to do something as I can't cope with another night like the last two Sad

Kaymer · 14/11/2010 20:51

Thank you AngelDog for your amazingly helpful post. I tried the 'Pantley Pull-Off' last night, combined with a bit of slightly manic singing of the teddy bear's picnic and Oh my Darling Clementine (a bit of a tragic song but never mind that). So she moaned a bit off and on but nothing serious, and eventually took herself off to sleep lying on the bed next to me. So some success!

This didn't translate into a good night's sleep of course, but I imagine it's a gradual process.

DD is definitely a tension increaser based on this definition. No doubt about it! That's really great to have read that. In that case, I'm not going to try CC. I wasn't keen to anyway, though was thinking we might have to eventually.

Poor curlyLJ. I feel your pain. If it's any consolation, dd did that horrible stay-awake thing for a while there around about the 8 month mark, but she stopped again quite shortly. So hoping it's a temporary thing for you too. She still wakes up frequently, but mostly goes back to sleep fairly quickly.

Suchanamateur · 15/11/2010 12:57

Sounds like illness and developmental spurts causing havoc. Hope PDog and AD feel better soon.

DS' cough turned out to be bronchiolitis which was horrid and scary as he struggled to breath. A combination of that and teething last week meant misery in the Amateur household and truly rubbish night sleep. Day sleep was fantastic but I think thats because he was so tired from being ill. He's on the road to recovery now though, and his naps are returning to their usual catnaps. Just pleased he is feeling better though. Our attempts to get a 9/1pm nap routine have fallen by the wayside while he was ill as his comfortable awake time massively reduced. Might try next week when he's properly better. IC - sounds like you're still struggling with 2 naps??

Curly - your DD and my DS are days apart in age, and we've been having the long wake ups too. Although not quite as long as yours - poor poor you. I was wondering if it was the illness but reading your (and Kaymer's) post has made me wonder if its developmental after all. Our 4 month regression started a couple of weeks early, so its possible that the same will happen at 9 months. Makes me want to rock in a corner just thinking about it. Anyway, wishing you some better nights!

AD - thanks for the massively useful information for Kaymer. You do realise that you will have to co-author a book with Igglybuff which will be the only sleep book worth reading?

InmaculadaConcepcion · 15/11/2010 19:07

Ah, curly... Sad TTSP, TTSP, TTSP...

Likewise SAA

Gradual's the word with the NCSS, kaymer! I'm kind of following those techniques myself (although crying is unavoidable here and there...)

In the strictest definition of the phrase, DD "slept through" last night - which meant she woke after 23.00 and after 45 mins trying to cuddle her back to sleep, I gave up and broke my "no feeds before midnight" rule and she was asleep again within ten mins. She then woke just after 05.00 and let me put her back in the cot straight after a feed, but fidgeted for quite a long time before she finally went back to sleep. At least I didn't have to help her, but of course, she kept me awake. Anyway, bless her, she then slept until 08.15.
So, 2 wake-ups still, just a slight shift in the timings...

I hope those of you having tougher times don't mind me reporting the better nights we're having recently. Personally, I'm always keen to hear if other people are experiencing improvements, but tell me to shut up it it's annoying.

Anyhow, I'm not counting my chickens etc. and kind of dread the whole thing going to crap again without warning....

And naps - well, they're okay really, if I don't object to them happening either in a moving pram (for a longer stretch), a static pram (for half an hour-ish) or attached to me. It's when I try and get her in the cot that we have problems. Which is why I keep deciding it's not worth the battle and give up in favour of a quiet life.

Sending your LOs sleepy vibes for tonight...

Suchanamateur · 15/11/2010 19:29

Great news IC! Hope you get a repeat performance tonight.

PDog · 15/11/2010 20:43

Yes great news IC. I like hearing about improvements elsewhere - it gives me hope.

Thanks for the fantastic tips again AngelDog. Yes please to the book suggestion - I would def buy it Grin.

Sounds scary suchanamateur, hope your DS is feeling better now.

Could she be teething Curly? We had similar episodes when DD was, long before the teeth actually appeared. Don't know what else to suggest unfortunately, it is so tough but it will get better .

DD has recently learned to sit up from lying down and has been waking herself up by sitting up in her sleep. No chance of getting her to nap without feeding now either as she just sits up!

OP posts:
Kaymer · 16/11/2010 05:04

IC, dd used to nap exclusively in the pram, until a couple of months ago I think it was. Then suddenly one day she decided to nap lying on the bed next to me. Now she refuses to sleep in the pram unless it is going on grass or gravel, and only if we've already been walking around 45 minutes Grin

So you never know what might happen with that! I was so relieved. Though I was fitter in those days too - now I spend most of my time lying down, ha ha.

Do you try lying down with her on the bed and then putting her into the cot once asleep? I know that's a 'bad' habit but easier than pounding the pavements.

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