Threads pitting childfree women against parents

[MiraculousLadybug]

Hi MNHQ.
I am not the only person who has noticed this, there's an ongoing thread on the childfree board as well about this issue.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/childfree-mumsnetters/5201723-is-anyone-else-getting-suspicious

There have been an awful lot of threads trying (with varying levels of transparency) to pit childfree women against women with children.

I really do think that there needs to be an outright rule on this, like the rule about not shaming women who breastfeed or who bottle feed or punditing either type of feeding, because it's really horrible to watch these nasty posters start arguments and they're not productive conversations. Women on whichever side is being hated on in any given thread feel compelled to "defend" themselves and their choice (or lack of choice) and it's clearly deeply upsetting for some people.

Here is one example I've seen just from the last 30 minutes (I saw another one but I've lost it now):

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/amibeingunreasonable/5203690-aibu-to-ask-how-to-handle-this-teacher

While people should be free to talk about problems, these sort of threads with snidey comments about women with or without children are unproductive and reinforce stereotypes on both sides. The thread above is just self explanatory nastiness towards women without children complete with generalisations.

While it isn't the strongest example of the other side of things, "people at work keep saying Christmas is for family and I don't have children and can't get time off" gets trotted out every year around now. It's never ended with a valuable discussion and always descends into a massive bunfight.

There's nothing to debate in these kind of threads, just stereotypes. The world doesn't need more polarisation. There are so many reasons why women don't or can't have children.

I know it's hard to walk the line between policing conversation and preventing harm, but if I was a childfree woman who hadn't made peace with that, some of the comments being made like "they all lack compassion" might actually tip me over the edge. It's unnecessary othering. Feelings run high on this and it's not ok, any more than the shitty "MN is for parents, so go away" comments that some people make.

It would be great if MN could take a position on this because it's gotten quite bad lately and it would be nice to know whether reporting individual threads would be taken seriously or not.

I hope MNHQ will take into account the number of people clicking "thanks" and not commenting when thinking on this one.

That's interesting as I was watching a Kellie J Keen video yesterday and she was saying in there that we need to have the discussion on mothers than she felt feminists were trying to shut down.

It needs to happen, otherwise you end up with Brexit or Trump V2 scinarios when you insult and silence people.

@ItIsBeginingToLookLike Was there any mention in that video of the fact that a lot of feminists also happen to be mothers?

Tedious isn’t it. Is it mumsnet stools trying to drive up engagement because the forum’s gone slow and the paymasters have noticed? Is it a deal to train AI? Is it to drum up some copy for buzzfeed or mumsnet madness? Or just plain arseholery.

Whatever. Makes me visit less and spend less time here.

It needs to happen, otherwise you end up with Brexit or Trump V2 scinarios when you insult and silence people.
I don't understand what you mean. There isn't a "discussion" happening on these threads about the pros and cons of having children or being childfree. That's not what this thread is talking about at all. It's talking about threads that intentionally pit two groups against each other in an unproductive way just to be nasty and score points. There is some suspicion that these may be being started by bots or bad faith posters but no one knows. It is not an open discussion of the topic in any academic sense.

While it isn't the strongest example of the other side of things, "people at work keep saying Christmas is for family and I don't have children and can't get time off" gets trotted out every year around now

So child free people are just supossed to suck up the Christmas shifts but arent even allowed to let off steam here under a pseudomym

Oh and im a social housing tenant. You cant have missed the way we are treated on here. Welcome to my world

I don't think the OP said that at all. But as "not a social housing tenant" I have never talked down people who are and I will challenge those who do. Two wrongs do not make a right.

So you see the issue with people saying this, but somehow are laying the blame on me for raising that it's an issue that people are saying this and that people are starting a massive bunfight about it. Um ok. 🤔

Not really sure what your housing situation has to do with this but I grew up in a council flat without a fridge freezer and half the time without electricity because my dad had thrown his money at whisky again, which eventually killed him leaving me an orphan, so I'm confused about how you're welcoming me to "your world" like you're the only one in it.

Edited for clarity.

I've definitely noticed this too, it seems like there's an agenda being pushed (or it's just to drive engagement). It's so unhelpful to pit women with and without children against each other. It also seems to come from a very atomised view of society, rather than recognising that everyone is interconnected, it's "Oh, why should I be affected?"

There’s policy on infant feeding discussions? It doesn’t stop similar threads cropping up every few weeks, as entrenched as ever. The suspicious number of Kendamil threads is always remarkable too.

On your main point, I’m not clear on what you’re hoping for.

haha. I've been on MN for about 15 years. There have always been endless debates between parents/ non parents, working mothers and SAH mothers etc. the reality is that there are loads of people who think whatever camp they'r ein, on whatever subject, is the ONLY legitimate and viable choice. And then they come on MN and find lots of other people who think the same while simultaneosuly bumping into a bumch of people who don't.... and then here we are.

As for mothers vs non mothers - it's not juts on MN. The long running thrad on the childfree board is for women who aren't mothers to commiserate regarding the batshit comments they often get in the real world, and on MN, because they're not mothers.

I agree OP. There are a lot of vulnerable young mothers who come to mumsnet for support and I'm not sure all the mother-bashing on those threads is what they need. It's really horrible. It does feel like there's something a bit deliberate going on. There are lots of posters here without children who are very supportive towards mothers and I don't think the constant pitting against each other is remotely representative of Mumsnetters without children population.

I've definitely noticed. Apparently if we don't want kids we shouldn't have pets, either. Because that's responsibility, too. That thread was posted yesterday. Ridiculous.

I see it has been deleted now, but that's recent.

Adding my support to this thread. What I've noticed is the OPs drop their bomb and quickly disappear, it's transparently being done to cause a bunfight.

I'm pleased that the ridiculous pets one has gone, thanks MNHQ, and also heartened that almost no one here agreed with the OP but it's got to the stage where I'm just waiting for the next one to pop up.

Speaking generally rather than troll-hunting any one thread, I wonder if AI is behind this sudden upsurge of froth-baiting.

Of course @JadziaD is right, it many ways it has ever been so. But I think there has been a rash of egregious examples recently, bomb planted at the outset, a couple of snippy responses on pages one and two to get the fire nicely stoked then never heard from again.

Whether arseholes, inisider manipulation or AI bollocks they’re not here for the conversation.

I wonder now if they’ve been rumbled it will
circle back to some clunky MRA nonsense or ‘there are kids in my class who identify as squirrels and are allowed to sit in trees all day’?

Yes it's a real battleground in a way it just wasn't a couple of years ago.

There's also an marked increase in horrible language about women who do have children ("just because you had a shag") and children themselves ("crotch goblins") and outright anti feminist positions (like the one that keeps coming up of getting rid of maternity leave and giving everyone sabbaticals instead that women can choose to use to have babies).

I've been here forever, I don't think the divide was there until very recently.

I find the threads very upsetting. As someone who is struggling with childlessness, to be told I am 'selfish', deserve to be lonely and am not even worthy of the companionship of a pet, makes me extremely sad. My mental health takes a nose dive every time I read such threads. I should really stay away from them, and the site as a whole.

Yeah @BarbaraHoward, it’s pretty stark isn’t it. I used to like Twitter and Instagram, this place is becoming similarly over run with the shouty drama llamas and purity circles. I’m all for different viewpoints but this feels manipulated and/or immature. I’m searching around for somewhere else to go for idle diversions, I’m bored with it.

I'm so sorry. Definitely avoid the threads, they don't reflect the views of anyone I know in real life at all. I hate this idea that we're all supposed to be on different sides - the very definition of divisive.

High 5 to you @Starfish89 . It’s not right that your pain is made the subject of people’s entertainment like this, here of all places. We should be able to talk about having/not having/wanting/not wanting children and not be run out of the room by these gits.

They should just shut the entire site down so no one can be offended.

It’s not about being offended @sunflowersngunpowdr It’s about a surge of a particular sort of posts, posted in similar ways, with similar behaviours. They appear to be designed to push people’s buttons, drive up the response rate and have nothing else to them. We are wondering who and why.

I am childfree immigrant with brown husband 🤷
Matw, you don't need to shoehorn the social tenant thing everywhere.. 🤷

Thank you @MiraculousLadybug . Honestly could not figure out how to do rhis post without sounding trolhunting

@Wtfdude I am Clutching. My. Pearls.

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