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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Disability hate on MN

530 replies

IClaudine · 02/05/2024 13:31

Hi MNHQ

Since Sunak’s announcement on disability benefits, there has been a big increase on MN in hostility towards people who receive then.

The abuse, hate and outright lies (my neighbour’s son’s cousin’s wife climbs Mount Everest but gets PIP etc) being spewed on MN towards disabled people, a group with protected characteristics, has been dreadful and very distressing for disabled people and their loved ones to read,

Please can you do something?

Here is a small selection of the threads where the disability benefit bashers have paid a visit and had a field day. There may be more, but I can’t face searching for them!

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5064828-to-be-terrified-about-pip?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share  

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5065470-people-who-work-have-anxiety-too?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5066670-aibu-to-hope-that-able-bodied-people-will-support-disabled-people-against-the-tory-attack-on-pip?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/money-matters/5064856-pip-vouchers-to-replace-money?reply=134966246&utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/money-matters/5066331-do-you-feel-bad-for-receiving-a-high-amount-of-uc?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
TigerRag · 03/07/2025 10:59

BeckyAMumsnet · 03/07/2025 10:00

Ho @PandoraSocks We’ve had reports about this post. While the suggestions may be punitive and perhaps overly simplistic to those with direct experience, and we understand why many posters find them offensive, but we didn't feel it broke our rules (though it was marginal). We allow critical and even uncomfortable views on the benefits system, because in our experience, airing and challenging them openly is better than shutting them down. That doesn’t mean we endorse them. There are many people who have little experience of benefits and perhaps zero experience of the increasing challenges faced by disabled people. We strongly believe that open discussions could go some way to address that. We know that for disabled posters in particular, this political moment feels uncertain and exhausting, and posts like this can add to that, so we understand the strength of feeling and we are trying hard to strike an admittedly difficult balance.

Will you address the fact that there are people coming onto boards for disabled people and disrupting the discussion?

BeckyAMumsnet · 03/07/2025 11:22

TigerRag · 03/07/2025 10:59

Will you address the fact that there are people coming onto boards for disabled people and disrupting the discussion?

Hello @TigerRag we can't see that you've reported that lately - please do so and we'll take a look. It sounds like we'd consider such behaviour inflammatory at the very least so we're keen to investigate further.

ValleyClouds · 03/07/2025 11:33

BeckyAMumsnet · 03/07/2025 10:00

Ho @PandoraSocks We’ve had reports about this post. While the suggestions may be punitive and perhaps overly simplistic to those with direct experience, and we understand why many posters find them offensive, but we didn't feel it broke our rules (though it was marginal). We allow critical and even uncomfortable views on the benefits system, because in our experience, airing and challenging them openly is better than shutting them down. That doesn’t mean we endorse them. There are many people who have little experience of benefits and perhaps zero experience of the increasing challenges faced by disabled people. We strongly believe that open discussions could go some way to address that. We know that for disabled posters in particular, this political moment feels uncertain and exhausting, and posts like this can add to that, so we understand the strength of feeling and we are trying hard to strike an admittedly difficult balance.

Your post defending Mumsnets stance just highlights the problem “people with zero experience “ holding forth about matters about which they are ignorant unchecked, threads such as So and So’s brothers wife’s cousin gets £1000 a month PIP when the maximum amount any one person can receive is significantly below that. You allow misinformation and ignorance free rein and you put the emphasis on your most vulnerable members to challenge it themselves and tolerate it.

Posts about SEND children are particularly bad because there is quite often a deliberate faux sympathy or disingenuousness to them to allow bashing to commence.

As a general rule I think there should be limits to the amount the same poster should be allowed to post threads in the same topic. As well as disability politics there are other issues and I think this would kill a lot of problem posters with one stone

PhilippaGeorgiou · 03/07/2025 12:00

Sorry, but I am gobsmacked that MNHQ considers it appropriate to post several patronising posts about what they think ableism is, or what they think are offensive comments about disabled people. Some people have engaged with reasoned arguments, yes, and whilst we may not always agree with them, that is legitimate - we don't always even agree with each other. But "my uncles third cousin / the random person living three streets away that I have never spoken to falsely claims PIP" is hate speech. Nobody, but nobody, lives in the skin of the person they are talking about. Comments about "marking our cars with a sign" are reminiscent of Nazi Germany and there is literally no other reasonable way to interpret such a comment. It is astonishing that MNHQ delete perfectly acceptable comments because someone doesn't like them yet cannot delete obviously offensive posts that dozens of people are reporting.

In all honesty, at least be upfront about it - it is about the clicks. It is about money. Calm and rational debates don't attract people, and no people isn't of interest to advertisers. MumsNet is notorious across the internet for having some of the most viscious threads going, not for being a nice and supportive place for people to have reasoned debate.

It would have been better to stay silent than to try to justify the unacceptable.

ValleyClouds · 03/07/2025 12:05

There’s one at the moment bashing parents for a) taking disabled kids to Disney World b) having the audacity to want a queue pass. It is simply there to bash and no other reason, yet I am sure it will be allowed to stand!

PandoraSocks · 03/07/2025 12:35

A post suggesting disabled people's cars should have a symbol on them is not "marginal" it is hate speech.

If I suggested the cars of any other minority group should be marked out in some way I would be rightly deleted and hopefully banned.

Piggywaspushed · 03/07/2025 12:37

The 'airing them so they can be shut down' defence is also used for racism, homophobia , transphobia , all easily found on MN.

It sucks.

Bumpitybumper · 03/07/2025 12:42

@PhilippaGeorgiou
Sorry, but I am gobsmacked that MNHQ considers it appropriate to post several patronising posts about what they think ableism is, or what they think are offensive comments about disabled people. Some people have engaged with reasoned arguments, yes, and whilst we may not always agree with them, that is legitimate - we don't always even agree with each other. But "my uncles third cousin / the random person living three streets away that I have never spoken to falsely claims PIP" is hate speech. Nobody, but nobody, lives in the skin of the person they are talking about. Comments about "marking our cars with a sign" are reminiscent of Nazi Germany and there is literally no other reasonable way to interpret such a comment. It is astonishing that MNHQ delete perfectly acceptable comments because someone doesn't like them yet cannot delete obviously offensive posts that dozens of people are reporting

This post highlights perfectly how unreasonable some posters are being. MNHQ have taken an objective view of what is ableist. You absolutely don't have to be disabled to apply an objective test in the same way that you don't have to be a woman to judge if a post is misogynistic. I assume by underlining the word 'they' you are suggesting that they are intrinsically incapable of applying an objective test because they aren't disabled. This is nonsensical. The idea also that comments should be removed just because a proportion of the forum's population could find them offensive would render a forum like Mumsnet completely unworkable. I read posts everyday that offend me on important issues like abortion, women's rights etc, it absolutely doesn't give me the right to shut down debates and discussion because I find them offensive or a sensitive topic.

People post anecdotes. Again, that's how a forum like MN works. You may post about your experience as a disabled person to educate people, others may post about their experience of the benefits system and the people they know that use it. Very few people are stupid enough to post on a public forum like MN and openly admit they abuse the system. It would be crazy to do this! We can't just assume though that it isn't happening and lots of people will know enough about family members and friends to know it's happening. They are as entitled to post about this as you are entitled to post about your life experiences. The weighting you put on their anecdotes and how accurate you perceive them to be is completely subjective. The internet is the wild west and we have no idea if anyone is who they say they are or if they're telling the truth about anything. It would be foolish to take down posts about people that allege to know that their acquaintance is fiddling the system on the basis that this may be inaccurate when every single post on this forum may well be inaccurate.

Suggesting that the only reason that people could want to label Motability cars is because it is 'reminiscent of 'Nazi Germany' is ridiculously offensive in itself to the victims of this regime and complete hyperbole.

You need to keep some perspective. Criticism is not automatically hate speech. Conflating the two is hugely dangerous and just works to shut down debate and discussion. We desperately need to keep debate and discussion going as when this ends it only leaves space for extremism to grow. If it's a sensitive topic then stay away from threads that you know will upset you and trust MN to moderate appropriately.

Piggywaspushed · 03/07/2025 12:46

Having to stay away from threads (I have hidden whole boards) might be better for one's mental health but it's one sure hellfire way of creating an echo chamber and leaving views unchallenged. Rather negates the point of debate MNHQ was trying to make.

ValleyClouds · 03/07/2025 12:48

trust MN to moderate appropriately

I don’t trust them to, I’ve seen far too much bullshit left standing

ValleyClouds · 03/07/2025 12:50

@Piggywaspushed I do hide most Disability threads actually I might look in and only comment if I think I have something to offer. It has improved my MN experience

PandoraSocks · 03/07/2025 12:53

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Bumpitybumper · 03/07/2025 12:54

ValleyClouds · 03/07/2025 12:48

trust MN to moderate appropriately

I don’t trust them to, I’ve seen far too much bullshit left standing

Then don't use Mumsnet. It really is the only option. They have taken a view on where the threshold lies for them on their forum. I happen to agree with their stance but if you don't then I don't see practically how you can be happy here.

Bumpitybumper · 03/07/2025 12:55

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Are you suggesting I am ableist because perhaps I have disagreed with you?

TigerRag · 03/07/2025 12:57

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

PhilippaGeorgiou · 03/07/2025 13:00

Bumpitybumper · 03/07/2025 12:42

@PhilippaGeorgiou
Sorry, but I am gobsmacked that MNHQ considers it appropriate to post several patronising posts about what they think ableism is, or what they think are offensive comments about disabled people. Some people have engaged with reasoned arguments, yes, and whilst we may not always agree with them, that is legitimate - we don't always even agree with each other. But "my uncles third cousin / the random person living three streets away that I have never spoken to falsely claims PIP" is hate speech. Nobody, but nobody, lives in the skin of the person they are talking about. Comments about "marking our cars with a sign" are reminiscent of Nazi Germany and there is literally no other reasonable way to interpret such a comment. It is astonishing that MNHQ delete perfectly acceptable comments because someone doesn't like them yet cannot delete obviously offensive posts that dozens of people are reporting

This post highlights perfectly how unreasonable some posters are being. MNHQ have taken an objective view of what is ableist. You absolutely don't have to be disabled to apply an objective test in the same way that you don't have to be a woman to judge if a post is misogynistic. I assume by underlining the word 'they' you are suggesting that they are intrinsically incapable of applying an objective test because they aren't disabled. This is nonsensical. The idea also that comments should be removed just because a proportion of the forum's population could find them offensive would render a forum like Mumsnet completely unworkable. I read posts everyday that offend me on important issues like abortion, women's rights etc, it absolutely doesn't give me the right to shut down debates and discussion because I find them offensive or a sensitive topic.

People post anecdotes. Again, that's how a forum like MN works. You may post about your experience as a disabled person to educate people, others may post about their experience of the benefits system and the people they know that use it. Very few people are stupid enough to post on a public forum like MN and openly admit they abuse the system. It would be crazy to do this! We can't just assume though that it isn't happening and lots of people will know enough about family members and friends to know it's happening. They are as entitled to post about this as you are entitled to post about your life experiences. The weighting you put on their anecdotes and how accurate you perceive them to be is completely subjective. The internet is the wild west and we have no idea if anyone is who they say they are or if they're telling the truth about anything. It would be foolish to take down posts about people that allege to know that their acquaintance is fiddling the system on the basis that this may be inaccurate when every single post on this forum may well be inaccurate.

Suggesting that the only reason that people could want to label Motability cars is because it is 'reminiscent of 'Nazi Germany' is ridiculously offensive in itself to the victims of this regime and complete hyperbole.

You need to keep some perspective. Criticism is not automatically hate speech. Conflating the two is hugely dangerous and just works to shut down debate and discussion. We desperately need to keep debate and discussion going as when this ends it only leaves space for extremism to grow. If it's a sensitive topic then stay away from threads that you know will upset you and trust MN to moderate appropriately.

And this post very ably demonstrates what I and others are talking about. You may not agree, but I do not need to "keep some perspective" - the perspective I have is perfectly fine thank you.

The reason we are saying this is because we do not trust MN to moderate appropriately ..."Suggesting that the only reason that people could want to label Motability cars is because it is 'reminiscent of 'Nazi Germany' is ridiculously offensive in itself to the victims of this regime and complete hyperbole." - I do not care if it is the only reason or one of 20 reasons - it is offensive, it is definitely reminiscent of Nazi Germany even if there are 19 other explanations as well, and it should not stand. If you suggested "marking black people" I know damned well what the response would be from every poster with any humanity in them - even if there were 19 reasons other than racism for the comment. You may not be offended. That doesn't make it inoffensive.

And I am not upset, thanks very much. I am angry. A rather different thing. When you have walked in the skin of someone with severe disability and heard all the lies and hatred peddled this last few weeks, you might be angry too.

PandoraSocks · 03/07/2025 13:00

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

This. I would post some examples but it would be a TAAT and get deleted.

Anyway, I am off out with my DH in our (checks notes)* * "luxury car".

PhilippaGeorgiou · 03/07/2025 13:02

PandoraSocks · 03/07/2025 13:00

This. I would post some examples but it would be a TAAT and get deleted.

Anyway, I am off out with my DH in our (checks notes)* * "luxury car".

Edited

I hope you have your marker on it.

PandoraSocks · 03/07/2025 13:03

PhilippaGeorgiou · 03/07/2025 13:02

I hope you have your marker on it.

Inverted black triangle is the right one, I think?

LadyKenya · 03/07/2025 13:07

Piggywaspushed · 03/07/2025 12:37

The 'airing them so they can be shut down' defence is also used for racism, homophobia , transphobia , all easily found on MN.

It sucks.

This. I find the transphobia especially off the scale on MN, and that is saying something.

Bumpitybumper · 03/07/2025 13:09

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Except they're not. I believe that @mnhq should take a hard stance on those accusing posters of ableism when someone dares suggest something that other posters don't like. It is hugely offensive and just works to shut down debate.

PandoraSocks · 03/07/2025 13:17

Bumpitybumper · 03/07/2025 13:09

Except they're not. I believe that @mnhq should take a hard stance on those accusing posters of ableism when someone dares suggest something that other posters don't like. It is hugely offensive and just works to shut down debate.

Maybe you should hide the thread if it upsets you?

Piggywaspushed · 03/07/2025 14:09

Touche.

Piggywaspushed · 03/07/2025 14:11

PhilippaGeorgiou · 03/07/2025 13:00

And this post very ably demonstrates what I and others are talking about. You may not agree, but I do not need to "keep some perspective" - the perspective I have is perfectly fine thank you.

The reason we are saying this is because we do not trust MN to moderate appropriately ..."Suggesting that the only reason that people could want to label Motability cars is because it is 'reminiscent of 'Nazi Germany' is ridiculously offensive in itself to the victims of this regime and complete hyperbole." - I do not care if it is the only reason or one of 20 reasons - it is offensive, it is definitely reminiscent of Nazi Germany even if there are 19 other explanations as well, and it should not stand. If you suggested "marking black people" I know damned well what the response would be from every poster with any humanity in them - even if there were 19 reasons other than racism for the comment. You may not be offended. That doesn't make it inoffensive.

And I am not upset, thanks very much. I am angry. A rather different thing. When you have walked in the skin of someone with severe disability and heard all the lies and hatred peddled this last few weeks, you might be angry too.

This is brilliant. Brava.

Piggywaspushed · 03/07/2025 14:12

Bumpitybumper · 03/07/2025 12:54

Then don't use Mumsnet. It really is the only option. They have taken a view on where the threshold lies for them on their forum. I happen to agree with their stance but if you don't then I don't see practically how you can be happy here.

Jeez, what you are suggesting there is quite something.