Childfree Mumsnetters' Board?

[musixa]

There's been some discussion on this thread about the idea of a childfree/life without children board, so I thought I would raise the suggestion on Site Stuff

[[https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4811166-to-ask-why-so-many-child-free-people-are-on-mumsnet?reply=126404125

My thinking is that the board would be a safe space for Mumsnetters who, for whether by choice or making the best of the hand they've been dealt, are embracing the childfree life, to discuss the issues that uniquely affect us - some examples I can think of are discrimination when it comes to workplace holidays; planning for old age and inheritance issues, how to cope when your friendship group only want to meet in child-friendly venues; family pressure to have children.

I would also hope it might stop so many threads like the linked one popping up, which often attract goady posters.

I hope you don't feel this is a step too far as a board suggestion and will give it serious consideration.

What about - "women who are not mums" for a name?

A problem with that is that it would exclude women who are mums, but no longer have living children.

Also potentially hurtful for those who desperately wanted children but couldn't have them for whatever reason.

I think 'mumsnetters without children' is a description that fits the circumstances in a non offensive way.

@off Your two posts are superb.

@Jeezuswept "Also potentially hurtful for those who desperately wanted children but couldn't have them for whatever reason. "

I am in that bracket but the title wouldn't feel hurtful, it just says what it is on the tin! I'd see that title and think "ooo that's me!"

That’s great but others might be.

Is there a reason why you don’t like women without kids being described as Mumsnetters?

@fitzwilliamdarcy I'm just trying to solve the issue of it being a board for childless/childfree rather than empty nesters.
I just think mumsnetters without children would make empty nesters think that means them.
The whole point is that it's a topic board for women who are not mums. I can't think of why it wouldn't just be called what it is?! I don't think its hurtful at all.
That's like saying the topic infertility is hurtful because it's upsetting to be infertile!

How about MumsNot?

🤣🤣🤣🤣 perfect! 😆

As the thread continues I'm less clear on the purpose of the new topic.

A space for childfree women to discuss (or vent) the issues arising from cross societal pressures to have children makes sense.
A space for "infertility acceptance" and going through that grieving process makes sense.

The two are not a natural fit and suggesting that the childfree can offer handy life tips to the childless is a bit off.

You want it on MN to be women centred (makes sense) but then put its "relevance to men" as a plus point. Women are judged for being childfree (selfish), childless (failures) and child having (selfish and feckless) in ways which men are not. Our whole life experience, but especially the having or not of children, is dominated by our femaleness.

There are other women centred forums with childfree topics but you seem not to like them as they also allow gender critical posters - so would this topic ban such posters (as is the case on a number of childfree sites)?

I agree with Chili and User upthread, experience of childfree groups is that they can be a magnet to (often male) antinatalists. They can also become just as smug and self congratulatory as their parenting counterparts. You will need clear moderation around this, especially if you actually want "without children" rather than childfree and that extra modding may not be practical.

The "practical" issues cited are not generally exclusive to the childfree.

The perennial topic of holidays - well most workplaces consider staff needs. Staff needs might be caring for small children, the elderly, the sick, the disabled, having a partner with industry restricted holidays etc. All of those should be considered, only one applies to parents for a few years. If you end up with threads discussing how to supersede the legitimate needs of other workers you will rapidly fall foul of NITS. If the issue is that the workplace is unfairly implementing those considerations then its more a subject for the employment topics.

Inheritance and elder care are both impacted far more by social and cultural issues, the wider family and the local legal framework than having children. Its a very outdated (and sexist) assumption that parents will be looked after by their children. The process of will making is covered by the legal topic where you will be reminded that legal frameworks on inheritance vary even within the British Isles (and MN is international, if skewed).

So to be honest at the beginning it made sense but now it seems to be a fudge of stuff which either doesn't really fit together, is already covered elsewhere or has massive bunfight potential.

A space for childfree women to discuss (or vent) the issues arising from cross societal pressures to have children makes sense.
A space for "infertility acceptance" and going through that grieving process makes sense.
The two are not a natural fit and suggesting that the childfree can offer handy life tips to the childless is a bit off.

I don’t agree. Many women who now think of themselves as childfree have been childless at some point and have a lot of understanding and helpful advice and experience. I’m in this category and would be happy with a shared space.

Defining a group by what they are not is a bit unpleasant, our identity is not defined by reference to the majority. We wouldn't call the black mumsnetters board non-white after all. It would also exclude those who had children that died or were still born.

I have no issue with Childless and Childfree Mumsnetters but can see there are potential problems. I think Mumsnetters without children is probably the least problematic.

I don't think empty nesters will identify themselves as without children as they have children and there is already a board for those with adult children. However it isn't intended to be strictly enforced. If someone has related issues, say someone with grown up estranged children, then providing they are respectful what's the problem if they feel they fit in, in much the same way that a white parent of mixed race children might post in good faith in the black mumsnetters board.

*I am not suggesting that being childless is the same as being black, the board faced similar arguments though.

I’m not convinced that this is really an issue, as childless/childfree are now commonly understood terms (even if the distinction isn’t).

But hey, maybe there is a need for an empty nesters board too. I can’t speak for that but if there’s a need or desire, why not?

This is one of the reasons I’m struggling with parents coming on here to argue that we don’t need a board because our issues are the same as the ones parents face. I can’t get my head around the need to tell other people what their experiences are without actually having done it myself. It’s the true love argument all over again.

It’s also weird and infantilising to suggest that we don’t know how to behave without excessive amounts of moderation or guidance from parents, and left alone we’ll end up breaking the law or inciting incels.

There is already a "Parents of Adult Children" board for empty nesters

A space for childfree women to discuss (or vent) the issues arising from cross societal pressures to have children makes sense.
A space for "infertility acceptance" and going through that grieving process makes sense.
The two are not a natural fit and suggesting that the childfree can offer handy life tips to the childless is a bit off

I think the two do overlap and it's not as black and white as you might (understandably) assume, similarly to a PP there was a time I would have described myself as childless but now I fully embrace being childfree.

Support and empathy from that viewpoint is much needed, and a place to share that would be brilliant, rather than trawling through old threads.

If someone has related issues, say someone with grown up estranged children, then providing they are respectful what's the problem if they feel they fit

I very strongly do not recommend this.

I’m active in this space and both boards and charity events on this topic always separate estranged parents from estranged children. It’s not considered sensible to mix them as you end up with parents in extreme pain demanding answers from the adult children in the group and causing them to relive trauma, rather than using the space as a neutral sounding board or support mechanism.

Parents whose children have estranged themselves have almost always caused the children significant physical or emotional harm. It’s extraordinarily rare for a child of sound mind to cut themselves off from their parent. I immediately hide threads on here from estranged parents and would not use a childless board if there were a lot of estranged parents using it to vent.

I recognise I’m now gatekeeping, myself!

I agree with @KimberleyClark and @Jeezuswept - I’m both childfree and infertile and would really value a board with both viewpoints allowed. Neither one in isolation truly fits.

Naturally there’d need to be sensitivity from those who are childfree to those who are infertile but in all honesty on this site the ones being awful to infertile women are the parents. I’ve never seen a childfree person be horrible to an infertile person, possibly because we share a unique understanding of a world without our own kids.

Clearly that wouldn't be appropriate or respectful use of the board and should be reported and moved.

I was thinking more about a person with estranged adult children concerned about care needs in old age might find useful practical ideas from the "without children" board.

I don't think it is to be encouraged but I don't think the risk of parents with adult children posting on the board is sufficient to block the board. Either it is inappropriate and should be reported and moved or it is respectful and relevant and can stand.

Yes, I see where you’re coming from, @JesusMaryAndJosephAndTheWeeDon - and you’re probably right.

I'd also say that I don't think all or maybe even many women without children fit neatly into the bracket of childless or childfree.

I don't have children. I'm not yet at an age that I could never have children, though of course I may be infertile. But I don't currently have a partner and I don't think I feel able to have children on my own. I'm not unhappy with my life at the moment, but I am also very aware that the possibility I may never have kids is floating out there and really quite likely. Having children is such a binary thing, you either have them or you don't. Sometimes that makes me sad, sometimes it's something I consider part and parcel of my life. I don't think it's necessarily the case that you can divide people neatly into childless or childfree.

I am another who arrived at Mumsnet by accident when searching for something on Google and stayed for the humour and the interesting discussion in a place where women's voices are front and centre.

Which is why I said "and going through that grieving process". The space for women going through that process is not the same as the space for those happy and choosing to be childfree (as was suggested upthread).

Over time the latter group may wish to join the former - my point is that childfree groups are not automatically a happy place for those still going through the process.

Which is why I said "and going through that grieving process". The space for women going through that process is not the same as the space for those happy and choosing to be childfree (as was suggested upthread).

It can be, for some. I’m still grieving but seeing women happy and confident in their choice helps an absolute ton. It’s more helpful in some ways than infertility groups, which can be very emotionally-wrought and difficult.

The process of will making is covered by the legal topic where you will be reminded that legal frameworks on inheritance vary even within the British Isles (and MN is international, if skewed).

We're not talking about the process of will making. We're talking about having a place to discuss, for example, who the hell one is meant to leave one's worldly goods to, when there is no obvious heir - aka the offspring.

Inheritance choices are restricted by law in many countries so yes, legal is the place to ask about those options.

Where you have a free choice that choice will be mostly influenced by social background, culture and regional issues. The commonality across those cultures is the judgement of pretty much all women who do not have children - not how you dispose of your worldly goods.