The Sex topic - an update on moderation

[YetAnotherBeckyMumsnet]

Hi everyone.

Thanks for all your comments over the past week regarding the Sex board. It’s become clear from the discussion that we needed a rethink about our approach to this part of the site and so we’re going to introduce some rules to help ensure that posters can get the support and advice they need from the board and that everyone has clear expectations of the behaviour we expect.

Posters must be at least 18 years of age - Mumsnet has always been a site for adults but we want to be crystal clear about this for this board.

The board is text based - we don’t allow NSFW (not safe for work) images.

We don’t allow links to any NSFW sites or personal profiles on other sites

We will not tolerate creepy or harassing behaviour in particular from male posters

We’ve also had concerns raised about the ongoing ‘sex chat threads’ including the risks involved with allowing users to PM each other. Our approach has always been to allow consenting adults to make their own judgement when it comes to what they’ll share and, broadly, that is still the case across the site - but we acknowledge there are additional vulnerabilities here that we ought to consider.

With that in mind, we will no longer allow users to ask for or to offer to send PMs for the purposes of sex chat. For one thing, we can’t guarantee that the person you’re chatting with is who they say they are and we can’t realistically safeguard these kind of off-board discussions. We’ve looked at the moderation principles of similar boards on other sites and this is indeed the policy on several others.

We’d also like to address some of your other comments if we may. Last year we reduced the time required from joining to posting on Sex from 90 days to seven. We’ve no plans to change this at the moment because this timeframe has proved to be a sufficient deterrent to bad actors and we believe that 90 days is too long if you’re a new user with a genuine concern. We’d also like to be clear that our commercial partnerships have had zero bearing on any changes we’ve made (nor did anyone ask us to make changes) and MNHQ does not (and would never) post affiliate links to products under the guise of a regular MNer. We may be many things, but we are not underhand!

As with everything, we’ll continue to monitor the situation and we hope these new rules will go some way to reassure you. If anyone has further questions, please post here and we’ll do our best to answer them.

Thanks.

@BIWI no that isn’t how I see Mumsnet, but it’s just an analogy for bumping into unwanted male attention. I could replace nightclub with yoga class or Tesco or school gates. Just a place where people interact.

So I post on the gardening topic and a man and woman both pm me. Are they both OK? Because its not about sex? Or is the man not ok because, well, he's a man so must be a creepy pervert?

Then I post on sex topic. A man and a woman both pm me. The woman is OK because she is the same sex as me? The man is not ok because he's a man. What if I'm a lesbian? Does that then make the woman a pervert too? Or are they both perverts because nobody should ever pm anybody else on the sex topic?

The sex topic has a different set of rules 🤔

Yes. Matters around sex often have different rules. Or should, anyway.

@YetAnotherBeckyMumsnet before I leave, I would like to see the other thread (about unwanted PMs) reinstated. I and others wrote some comments on there that I would like to see stand, given the seriousness with which MN should take supporting women's voices around matters of consent.

If overnight a lot of comments were OTT/abusive/Not in the spirit (HA!) and you'd rather just get rid of the whole thread to save the bother, well tough! - I, and others, I'm sure, would expect you to delete those and reinstate, however cheesy the threads ends up. But any reasonable comments on the subject itself should stand.

Certainly, as long as the sex chat/hooking up/whatever thread is up, I expect that thread to be reinstated.

And that applies to Sex (the MN topic), Sex (the act) and Sex (the biology).

And yet here you are. Again.

Personally, no objection to sex chat between consenting adults. Not sure MN is the place for it though.

that sex chat thread is nearly full right, surely it won’t be long before no new posts can be added and it will fade away. I would assume MNHQ wouldn’t allow a new one following this announcement!

@beastlyslumber are you accusing someone of being predatory?

@Mermaidparades I'm really confused

I view the messages like being in a nightclub and a guy comes over to make a move. I’m able to politely decline his advances, it’s ok and no one was harmed. That’s why it didn’t occur to me to report. But I know that I’m expected to do more now, so I will

I have not posted my details on the Sex Chat thread and no one from there has sent unsolicited messages. My boundaries have been respected.

So you've received dodgy PMs from men but you haven't posted your details on the sex chat thread so there's no connection. Or that men who have posted on the thread haven't sent you PMs. Or as far as you know as we all know it's possible to run with multiple user names on MN.

So in summary:

• you've received multiple dodgy unsolicited sex PMs
• as far as you know, none of them have been from any men who have used the same user names as they use on the sex chat threat.
• you have concluded that this means the men on the sex chat thread respect your boundaries.

Is that about right?

Or your point is people shouldn't be requesting or sending pms about sex with each other...

Yes, this is the point.

As @YetAnotherBeckyMumsnet said, 'we will no longer allow users to ask for or to offer to send PMs for the purposes of sex chat'

All caught up now?

If unsolicited sex PMs aren't allowed. And solicitation of sex PMs isn't allowed, surely that means all sex PMs are disallowed.

It's like some weird logic puzzle.

@SongforPessoa I must admit when I read the MNHQ update I assumed the sex chat thread was about to disappear.

I'm surprised it hasn't.

I'm not much bothered either way but I understand that others are.

I do wonder if unsolicited PMs will increase if there's no place for solicited PMs but I guess we'll find out.

I think this is naive at best or just another man telling women it's all ok and we are making a fuss about nothing.

The Sex Chat/dirty talk/hook up thread is being used as an open door to the real world. The OP openly suggests posters on the thread move on from PMs to Kik and Messenger. Some move on to talk on the phone and some meet up in person. It seems that two posters had even been 'set up' together by a third poster, as if he had pimped out the woman poster to another male poster.

Some women are more vulnerable than others. The women posters are inundated by PMs from the men. There are also no real safeguards in place to ensure that posters are not children or young people - girls or boys - rather than streetwise adults. Meeting via Mumsnet can give a false sense of security - security that is just not there, especially once someone moves on from PMs on the site to contact out in the real world.

@Clymene I don’t think you’re confused at all. You seem to have put together a lovely presentation of my take on the situation. I appreciate that there is a possibility that someone may have name changed! I don’t think I said‘multiple’ though, there’s only been a couple

@RockClimber I'm not telling anyone what is OK for them. I understand the issues especially with the sex chat thread and I've repeatedly advocated for at least a clear guide to Internet safety if it were to remain.

I'm assuming it won't at this point.

It's like Schrodinger's sex chat: simultaneously banned but also allowed. Please, @YetAnotherBeckyMumsnet , open the box and kill the fucker. It makes zero sense to announce that the offering and requesting of sex chat PMs is banned but to allow an 800 post thread set up solely and specifically for exactly this to stand - and for posts to continue! Why on earth announce that this behaviour is banned for safeguarding reasons but let it carry on? Really, why? As long as that thread is there, people will use it for its intended purpose.

I was confused because your two posts seemed entirely contradictory to me. But obviously there's a logic there for you.

What seems pretty clear is that women who post on the sex topic, even when they don't invite men to contact them, receive unwanted sleazy PMs.

And again, I wonder what the point of it is.

I am massively in favour of it being renamed as women's sexual health and well-being as other women have suggested. If you want it to be a welcoming space for women to discuss difficult and sometimes embarrassing issues, it needs to be a women centred topic. Right now, it's a 'my wife won't put out' topic. And I'm sure it puts a whole load of women off.

I do wonder if unsolicited PMs will increase if there's no place for solicited PMs but I guess we'll find out.

I find this interesting. So you obviously have suspicions that the posters on the sex chat threads are not of very good character. It's like, give them a legit way to get their dirty talk out or they might force it on people that don't want it? Why would you want to hang out and defend a board that you 'wonder' might be populated by people with no boundaries?

Yes, if it is a nightclub it's a sticky-floored, depressing little cave where single women get in free. A gaggle of desperate blokes are leering at everyone without discernment, begging for sexy talk and not even bothering to take their wedding rings off. A couple of men are deep in conversation at the bar about the durability of their fleshlights. Every now and again someone rubs up against you, eager to know where you like to be ejaculated on. And this is a space for women to feel comfortable asking questions and starting conversations about sex?

@Surplus2requirements

I do wonder if unsolicited PMs will increase if there's no place for solicited PMs but I guess we'll find out.

So you think that the people who have been sending solicited PMs via the sex chat thread will turn to sending unsolicited ones if that's their only option?

It also doesn't work to give creeps 'an outlet' and expect it to be enough - it just gets them more worked up and encourages them to see all women as existing for their gratification. But the floodgates have been opened now anyway so it probably will increase, especially given the contradictory and confusing message coming from MN.

I am a woman. I have posted on the Sexchat thread asking for PM. I had quite a lot of PMs and still get a few because my username is on there. Out of the many private messages that I have received I have had 1 PM that following the first few responses from me became increasing unpleasant and I blocked him. I have had no unpleasant or horrible first messages. Any other people that I haven't wished to have a conversation with I have either politely told them that or ignored them and that. My point here is that my name is out there on the chat multiple time and I am not bombarded with horrible PMs. There seems to be some castastrophizing going on here by people who are not on the thread.

Other posts in the sex topic are in generally informative and useful conversations about different aspects of sex for those interested who might need to find something out about the topic without taking to their partners or friends. I am still facing a considerable amount of teasing from my mates about my vibrator selection and am therefore more inclined to discuss them on here on a suitable sex thread than with them.

This topic and thread have been discussed endlessly over the last few weeks. MN has made a decision. You don't like it. We know that. You have told us all many, many times. Stay away from the sex topic. Report any inappropriate PM if you get any. Move on.

What you're not getting is that the sex topic affects the rest of the site.

Why do you have to have sex chats on a parenting website? Seriously, there are loads of places where men will happily message you for sex. Why do you insist that it has to be here?

I really don't know, how would I? I don't really 'hang out' anywhere except maybe the Ukraine war thread in Chat and despite the feeling I've got to know some of the regular posters fairly well I don't know them at all.

I don't engage in the sex chat thread (might have posted a joke or two but I'm not sure...someone will no doubt check) but my experience on the rest of the board is everyone is respectful and expected to be so.

I'm glad that others are now strongly advocating reporting, I've always thought thats an important part in safeguarding.

If in doubt report and let HQ decide who can see a much broader picture.

"What you're not getting is that the sex topic affects the rest of the site"

Statistical evidence for this please?