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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Original poster

Web Chat Suggestion - QC on Rights When Approaching or Being Approached by Police

119 replies

MelodyPondsMum · 04/10/2022 13:36

I'm not sure if this is the right place and you've been tagged in the thread where I originally suggested it but thought I'd put it here too. My original post is in italics and bold.

I wonder if we could get MNHQ to do a webchat with a QC about women's rights concerning arrests/cautions/vexatious complaints, etc - basically any interactions with the police.

The QC could provide a detailed checklist on what to do when faced with a police officer at the door; an officer determined to gain entry; an officer casually referencing sectioning, etc because threads on here show that some posters seem to think random Googles are the same as understanding the law and their rights. It isn't.

Also, is it possible to have a group litigation order against the police? Women need to mobilise collectively around these particular issues with the police.

Women are regularly dismissed when the try to report VAWG, stalking and harassment. The End Violence Against Women Campaign has called for action regarding the wider culture in the police that fails women and enables perpetrators. Women are often dismissed and sent away.

Women are also being disproportionately targeted under Hate Incidents legislation.

Yy there are general rights that all people have when approached by the police or approaching the police. But there are also issues peculiar to women eg

  • women are more likely to be care givers so there are issues around childcare (and police threatening mothers with SS involvement to 'watch' their DCs whilst they are at the station);
  • there are issues around the weaponising of MH issues and vulnerabilities (threatening with sectioning but not providing appropriate medical supervision or assessment)
  • there are issues around searching (both of houses and persons)- taking into account sex, periods, religious beliefs, etc
  • there are issues around how to act if you believe the original complaint has been made maliciously
  • there are issues around how to get a complaint regarding VAWG taken seriously

I think it would be very beneficial for MNHQ to provide a reliable source of information to ensure women are aware of their rights. I also think a webchat would raise the profile of the issues that women face and how disproportionately the laws are currently applied depending on your sex.

Yy there is lots of information in different places on the web but it would be good to have the information in one place, and for up-to-date advice in light of the changing legal landscape. TIA

OP posts:
Original poster
MelodyPondsMum · 27/10/2022 08:44

ShowOfHands · 26/10/2022 10:13

There are police officers and spouses of police officers on MN and presumably, KC and spouses thereof. No reason why we can't information share amongst ourselves is there? I know it's difficult because it's not verified but some of us are MNers of old and happy to prove credentials to MN.

My wider circle includes a KC, some PFs, a number of detectives and police officers. Pooling information ourselves wasn't my point.
Firstly, the law is different across the UK and lots of police officers and lawyers just automatically speak from their own experience.
Secondly, anyone on here can say anything they like and pretend to be anyone. Never trust a MNer for legal advice.
Thirdly, the optics of MN providing this webchat would be very powerful. Ordinary women need advice on their rights and how to deal with the police. Officers are coming into their homes for 'reposting' photos or because of malicious complaints. It's completely unprecedented.
However if this isn't a priority for MN then I can think of, at least, one other female focused forum that would tap into their networks to provide this service. Considering MN hosts FWR and some of the questions were around anonymity online and when forums release details, I had thought MN was the natural place for this type of webchat.

OP posts:
Original poster
MelodyPondsMum · 27/10/2022 08:55

Also, not to disrespect police officers but as a whole they are consistently showing they don't understand the law around these matters.NAPOALT obviously.
But there is a complete lack of legitimacy if a police officer is on your doorstep and you're arguing that a random police officer on MN gave you advice. It's very different if you can say a xx (a named and respected KC or barrister or advocate) has advised me my rights are xyz.

OP posts:
NewGreatAunty · 27/10/2022 09:22

I should explain that I mentioned this thread to feindVicarInATutu because she has been part of useful discussion on another thread. I am sorry if that was the wrong thing to do. apologies too, to Vicar, for dragging you over here, if you now feel unwelcome.

feindVicarInATutu · 27/10/2022 11:48

NewGreatAunty · 27/10/2022 09:22

I should explain that I mentioned this thread to feindVicarInATutu because she has been part of useful discussion on another thread. I am sorry if that was the wrong thing to do. apologies too, to Vicar, for dragging you over here, if you now feel unwelcome.

It's fine dont worry .

NewGreatAunty · 27/10/2022 11:50

AlisonDonut · 26/10/2022 09:54

The issue MN has, is that their Director is also the Director of the Good Law Project, [the one that just keeps failing in courts].

So...the obvious place to go to would be the Good Law Project. And the Good Law Project hates women, especially Lesbians as it supports people like Mermaids taking the LGB Alliance to court.

They cannot provide this as it would be a conflict of interest to have one half of the Good Law Project advising women of what to do when the other half of the Good Law Project are involved with people who actively are trying to get these women arrested.

It's a conundrum - Shrodinger's Good Law Project in action.

I never realised this! No wonder the associated questions on web chats are deleted/not asked. I am sure the frustrated people posting the questions on the current Keir Starmer web chat have no idea either.

ShowOfHands · 27/10/2022 13:39

MelodyPondsMum · 27/10/2022 08:55

Also, not to disrespect police officers but as a whole they are consistently showing they don't understand the law around these matters.NAPOALT obviously.
But there is a complete lack of legitimacy if a police officer is on your doorstep and you're arguing that a random police officer on MN gave you advice. It's very different if you can say a xx (a named and respected KC or barrister or advocate) has advised me my rights are xyz.

I know all of the above and understand the issue. I was responding more to the fact that I don't think MN will host what you want on here. And, as I acknowledged, I know a couple of police officers and KC who would provide credentials before speaking and can provide links to legislation to back up the information provided.

I've found it very, very useful to be able to speak to people on the front line so to speak and it's helped me to know my rights as a GC feminist.

In an ideal world, I'd like to see what you propose. I just don't think it can happen.

feindVicarInATutu · 27/10/2022 17:22

You're correct though - while I would endeavour to give the facts it probably wouldn't be a huge amount of use if something happened, although I could have give you pointers on things like a power of entry ,

You are correct that people do talk shite - my own.colleagues threatened to put my door in once with absolutely no legal power to do so .
I enjoyed telling them to fuck right off .

HatThatWearsYou · 27/10/2022 17:26

I still don't think you're a police officer @feindVicarInATutu

feindVicarInATutu · 27/10/2022 17:38

HatThatWearsYou · 27/10/2022 17:26

I still don't think you're a police officer @feindVicarInATutu

Well that's fine - no skin off my nose ! But I am . Almost 14 years now and 2 years as a special before that . I do t have to justify myself. - don't want my help- do t take it . Simple .

BoreOfWhabylon · 27/10/2022 19:59

@HatThatWearsYou
Vicar has been posting on MN for donkey's years. Although we can never be sure anyone on the interwebz is who they say they are, she has been remarkably consistent and I'm pretty sure she is a PO.

Original poster
MelodyPondsMum · 27/10/2022 20:07

Tbh I think arguing about what posters think of other posters is just derailing. Vicar has been here for years. I don't think my post would have made her feel unwelcome.
It just wasn't the point of the thread. My aim in starting it wasn't to get other posters to give advice or to get our friends to cobble something together. It was to get a publicised webchat that actually benefitted the women who are here.
There are umpteen webchats that are organised for the benefit of the person or group taking part eg when WEP thought they could float in when they first started and just get some mums to support their need for photo ops. Or when MPs think they can get an easy time and some nice publicity.
It would have been a webchat that served MN users rather than MN users serving some MP or celebs' publicity team.

OP posts:
feindVicarInATutu · 27/10/2022 20:16

I hear you melady

And I get that my credentials haven't been confirmed officially - im sure there are people who claim to be something they aren't so it's sensible.
And yes something official by a named QC or lawyer, barrister or even judge would be nailed on .

Saying "well I've got this mate , we'll not a mate , someone in the internet ...." wouldn't cut it !

But I do know my policing powers however I can fully believe that many don't and assume the uniform is enough- like I said - my colleagues actually threatened to put my door in when I refused to answer it - which had me laughing hysterically, I text back saying "yeah ? On whose authority and by what power ? " which shut them up ! Like they thought they were talking to someone who didn't know the law ! It was quite funny actually though not at the time ....

HatThatWearsYou · 28/10/2022 00:54

I am aware that poster has been here for a long time and consistent in what they say they do.
Given the poster is unverified by anyone other than themselves it wouldn't really be what this post was started for. That's apart from my personal reservations in general, of which I have many.

Apologies @MelodyPondsMum

feindVicarInATutu · 28/10/2022 02:16

As stated - no skin off my nose . Not giving unwanted or unsolicited advice.

feindVicarInATutu · 28/10/2022 02:26

And hat

No need for the frostiness. You don't have to engage with me if you dont want to .

feindVicarInATutu · 28/10/2022 06:20

Might name change to "THE POSTER"

Sounds quite formidable.

DifficultBloodyWoman · 28/10/2022 06:28

I like ‘THAT POSTER’ more! 🤣

feindVicarInATutu · 28/10/2022 06:32

DifficultBloodyWoman · 28/10/2022 06:28

I like ‘THAT POSTER’ more! 🤣

Might name change ....😂

anyolddinosaur · 28/10/2022 06:38

@feindVicarInATutu I'm not yet allowed to post on another board so - this is what happens when women cant challenge men in female toilets www.hampshirelive.news/news/hampshire-news/police-appeal-after-woman-photographed-7729350?int_source=mantis_rec_rhc&int_medium=web&int_campaign=more_like_this_rhc

The surprising thing about that is the police are said to be investigating, although I now have so little faith in them I expect it is said to be and not actually doing anything.

anyolddinosaur · 28/10/2022 07:13

@LilyMumsnet Can you confirm the comment about your Director also being a Director of the Good Law Project? If true how long has he been a Director?

Original poster
MelodyPondsMum · 28/10/2022 07:37

There's already a separate thread about the Good Law connection from when it was first raised ages ago. Justine commented on it then. You can find it using search.
I don't think it's the smoking gun others consider it to be. Although agree it's good to be aware of links.

OP posts:
anyolddinosaur · 28/10/2022 07:57

OK - when I looked for Directors of the Good Law Project a different name came up. Not a person who would be suitable to advise women on legal rights. The police are supposed to be concerned about regaining public confidence, maybe Sir Mark Rowley would like a web chat.

AlisonDonut · 28/10/2022 08:23

MelodyPondsMum · 28/10/2022 07:37

There's already a separate thread about the Good Law connection from when it was first raised ages ago. Justine commented on it then. You can find it using search.
I don't think it's the smoking gun others consider it to be. Although agree it's good to be aware of links.

It isn't a smoking gun, as no women are actually dead yet.

Just arrested pending further investigations [the process is the punishment]. Which is why there is a conflict of interests.

I would have expected MNHQ to have been up front about it to be honest, when replying to you. Even in the context of it not being appropriate for them to source. Which is why I posted on here expecting them to say so.

When I was in the corporate/QUANGO world and people asked me questions I was always up front about whether it was appropriate for us to do or not and whether there was a conflict of interests.

DennisNoelKavanaghOffTwitter · 28/10/2022 10:29

Hi, sorry, only just seen this

I'd be happy to discuss the legal characteristic of arrests / best practice in volatile situations etc not a problem.