RACIST POSTS ABOUT MEGAN MARKLE

[CrazyDuchess]

Time and time again this argument on Mumsnet about why you allow racist threads to stand for so long and take little action?

You assured us before that "lessons have been learnt" and all that rubbish but yet again here I am arguing with some other posters and your staff about whether a thread is racist??

I’m not missing the point. If a word Is deemed offensive then is should be blanket offensive for all. Not when someone chooses to move the goal posts.

A poster at some point got called or was deemed racist because they used the verb ‘strutting’- that is not fair.

And report my post if you think I’m sock puppeting.

How can the "surrounding rhetoric" (ie comments made by other other people that I, the original speaker, have no control over) impact whether an individual comment that is exactly the same as a remark made about a white woman and made with the same intention, is suddenly racist?

If I say something like "I dislike Megan Markle's hats" and someone responds with something obviously racist like "yes, black women often wear bad hats" surely my original comment doesn't magically become racist even though the "surrounding rhetoric" has become not just "harsh and critical" but actively racist?

And no, of course Motherofcreek and I are not the same person. It is possible more than one person disagrees with you rather than just me having elaborate sock puppets. Feel free to check my posting history or message MNHQ to check.

Do the people who have taken exception to this thread realise that that the op was unhappy about actual racist comments referencing MM's skin colour in a negative way? Multiple comments that she reported and weren't deleted?

A poster at some point got called or was deemed racist because they used the verb ‘strutting’- that is not fair.

No they weren't. That was part of a wider quote and point made by Calla r.e racism target at Diane Abbott.

OP, good luck with your thread. You will need it.

Racism, Islamophobia, and antisemitism is tolerated on MNet because there is still the belief that the nice, white women here can't possibly be racist, Islamophobic or antisemitic. Instead, the WOC, Muslim and Jewish women are being precious when they complain. Because the people best placed to define racism, Islamophobia and antisemitism are nice, white Christian/atheist Mnetters don't you know.

Well I wouldn't characterise my posts as "taking exception to this thread" but I am^^ perfectly capable of reading, yes.

As the OP has put it "my objective when I started this thread was to highlight the inadequate reporting system for racist posts - have done that.^ Everything else is a bonus!^"

If a word Is deemed offensive then is should be blanket offensive for all.

Well yes. In an ideal world that would most certainly be the case. I hope it doesn't come as news to you that we live in a structurally unequal world. One in which places values on things which should not even matter... like ummmmmmm race. Go figure.

If a word Is deemed offensive then is should be blanket offensive for all.

This is not how language works. Context is central to meaning. And with language that has racial overtones, history is very important. The whole concept of dog whistling depends on the notion that words that may not otherwise appear racist will be understood to be so by racist listeners and by other people who know the history.What some people on this thread are trying to do is explain examples of that and how it works.

I agree with Seneca re the importance of context and dog whistling.

I don't understand how that explains Vladmirs' view that "Let's say people called Meghan 'Waity Meghan' in the same way they did Kate - i.e. not doing much else in life but waiting for a prince to propose. I would bet my house on the rhetoric surrounding MM's waiting to be far harsher and critical than that of Kate's."

Is it really the case that any criticism of Meghan is potentially racist because other people could then be harsher about that criticism than they would otherwise be because of her race? Because that has nothing to dog whistling.

Totally agree with you OP. Thanks for your patience and good grace and repeated clear explanations of ideas which keep being misconstrued and served back to you. Will keep on reporting racism where I see it to MNHQ.

Thank You- I've tried to be clear but there are determined few with an agenda I am not very clear about so will leave them be now.

I hope this might encourage MNHQ to take a better look at how the identify and respond to racist post. If their moderators are like some of the posters here then I totally get why it was left to stand for so long. Doesnt make it acceptable and makes it clear there is a need for further learning on their part.

Some posters seem to keep coming back to the reductionist view that this post is criticism = racism Which is exactly NOT what I and other posters are saying.

'Some posters seem to keep coming back to the reductionist view that this post is criticism = racism Which is exactly NOT what I and other posters are saying.'

Yes but unfortunately you haven't explained why on any thread criticising mm that is exactly what happens, people are accused of being racist for holding a negative opinion. So you can see where the confusion comes from surely. I understand 'jumped up little bitch' is offensive and should be deleted thought I'm not sure that was ever actually said.

I don't like the royals full stop. If William, Princess Anne, Kate whoever is in the media using private jets and swanning around patting poor people on the head it makes me roll my eyes. So of course when mm does it it has exactly the same effect.

I think it's clear that @CrazyDuchess is not referring to posts about taking private jets or buying expensive clothes. Rather, like I said upthread, it's criticisms like "not an English Rose", "too American", "doesn't get our royal family". You may not classify these as racist but they're certainly xenophobic.

Yes but unfortunately you haven't explained why on any thread criticising mm that is exactly what happens, people are accused of being racist for holding a negative opinion.

Not my job! I am not an expert in any case.

What I am doing is calling out a racist post when I see it!

I don't like the royals full stop. If William, Princess Anne, Kate whoever is in the media using private jets and swanning around patting poor people on the head it makes me roll my eyes. So of course when mm does it it has exactly the same effect.

We seem to agree here. I would abolish the lot of them before lunch time today and be happy with it. I find the very notion of being 'Royal' rather fanciful and ridiculous but that's not we are discussing here is it.

But again for the millionth time: racist and xenophobic comments are rightly called out on threads and this particular thread was imploring MNHQ to act quicker when those posts are reported to them.

Not liking MM does not equal therefore being racist. Frankly no-one has suggested that and it's you who seems to keep spinning back to that point which no-one has actually made.

Is it really the case that any criticism of Meghan is potentially racist because other people could then be harsher about that criticism than they would otherwise be because of her race? Because that has nothing to dog whistling.

Actually yes it does have everything to do with dog whistle racism. As everyone has said: 'I dislike Meghan Markle' does not therefore equal 'I am racist'. But there is an historical reason why comments such as "Meghan is too showy and over-bearing" or "She's not quite an English rose is she", are, to put it mildly, problematic.

But "not an English Rose" is clearly dog whistling - it's a veiled reference to her skin colour.

The example you gave (although your post has now been deleted, I assume for troll hunting) was that referring to Meghan as "waity Meghan" as Kate Middleton was referred to as "waity Katy" would be racist because the surrounding rhetoric would be more critical.

More critical most certainly yes but racist - we'd have to see what the post, in theory, stated. Can't pre-emptively call out racism with no substance.

There have been multiple threads about MM's credentials and work ethic prior to marrying Harry. In other words that she was a 3rd rate actress on a 3rd rate show. So be it. I had never heard of Suits prior to MM being catapulted into the British media spotlight as Harry's fiancee. Thank the lord she wasn't prancing about at Jigsaw twice a week looking at Spring/Summer collections.

Whether you like it or not - BAME individuals are treated far harsher than their white counterparts. This isn't even unique to MM and Kate; it's rife within the structure of society. Even something as small and irrelevant as a black woman being told her afro is not 'professional' which leads to masses of black women chemically relaxing their hair in order to fit in with the 'ideal'.

These

Whether you like it or not - BAME individuals are treated far harsher than their white counterparts.

True. It's the vehemence with which some posters criticize the Duchess of Sussex that often raises red flags to me. It may not be on its face racist, but when it is all out of proportion to the subject being discussed, I often suspect that it is motivated at least in part by racism. And this has certainly been true of criticism in the US of Michelle Obama. If people enjoy attacking a black woman (or man for that matter), they often take it up a notch or two.

Your last sentence is bang on the money @SenecaFalls.

Just to go back to this point about hair. Being mixed race means in the black community that you have 'good hair' - that's another problem in itself but that's for another thread.

These two pictures of MM illustrate something quite innocuous on the face of it: MM's natural hair and her hair either chemically treated or straightened to within an inch of its life. I know this because this is also my hair type.

In the first picture - when not gelled and tied our hair would be a wild curly afro. In the second is what we need to do to present as 'acceptable' and 'professional' in society. Yes of course it comes down to choice but for many black women it isn't so much a choice as more of a requirement.

I once reported a poster who said that Isis were actually Jews who were sowing seeds of panic and discontent against Muslims so that Israel could then wipe out the Palestinians without international opprobrium.

The reply I got back was that it not anti-Semitism but just that persons opinion which she was entitled to.

MNHQ is an absolute joke sometimes.

I think sometimes it’s difficult to disentangle crackpot conspiracy theorists from racists (or maybe they go hand in hand)