“Racism” towards the Irish on here

[Giantbanger]

Can we please talk about it and can you please get your mods some training.

There was a thread that stood from yesterday. The op was goady and people were reporting the fuck out of it from yesterday.

It went this morning because the op was previously banned for being goady. No surprises there then.

But it contained a post from a member of MNHQ that really bothered me and I would like to discuss.

Add message | Report | Message poster EstherMumsnet (MNHQ) Mon 29-Oct-18 19:43:38
Hello!
Thanks for all the reports on this one. We'd like to leave this up as it's a pretty interesting discussion - one for the colonial/post colonial literature experts perhaps (yes - we know there's an argument over whether Irish literature counts as such!) - so please keep to the spirit of the site when discussing this and make your points politely. Thanks

So if there’s a “racist” thread about the Irish, it is an interesting discussion and the Irish need to be polite when telling racists they are racists.

(And Yes. I know in the dictionary definition Irish isn’t a race. It’s a subset ethnicity of Caucasian but the term is used more broadly in general use than the dictionary definition.)

When a black person tells you that a golliwog is an offensive toy, do you say well it was ok in the 70s and some people think it still is, or do you care about their feelings and get a different sort of cuddly toy?

One reaction is racist. One isn’t.

Please do report any posts which you think are either deliberately inflammatory or racist or both and we promise to take a look at every report that comes in and to deal with them as speedily as possible.

@MNHQ You haven’t acknowledged, let alone taken action against any of the posts I’ve reported as contra talk guidelines today.

Why is that?

Oh @MichaelMumsnet... Just take the bloody feedback! Like really, how wedded to that phrase are you that you couldn't update the language. And it's a much larger issue than just than one phrase. I'm dealing with a sick child right now hence the brevity.

Four days to come up with that!

What about EstherMN's awful statement regarding Irish literature?

Why not use a different expression to "beyond the pale"? There seems to be a general consensus among Irish types that it is offensive to them.

I have reported Michael’s post.

It would be a trivial gesture on Mumsnet part to remove the phrase ‘beyond the pale’ from their definition of racism as they admit its racist origins. It is unnecessary to their definition so would cost them nothing but earn a lot of goodwill.

Good idea @changehere. I've also reported Michael's post for bigotry.

I’ve reported for racism.

Good call @changehere.

Every time guidelines are referred to on any thread I’m going to report for racism.

I feel @Giantbanger has pointed out something uncomfortable and true here. She's been very polite and open to discussion with Mumsnet to illuminate them on why decisions they've made can be offensive and cause upset. I would have expected Mumsnet to engage in a discussion to understand why so many of us agree and then evaluate whether the mods need more guidance on this in order to make better decisions.

Just take the feedback!!!

I’ve also just reported his post as deliberately inflammatory

MN response just demonstrates exactly what we've been saying. If an Irish person tells you something offends them then it offends them and you don't get to tell them they shouldn't be offended!

I have also reported Michael's post for being deliberately inflammatory to Irish posters.

I’ve reported it too.

If a black person says the N word is offensive, does the white person get to tell them it’s not?

If not, why not? And why is this different?

Me too

#misefreisin

Can't you see how people become radicalised? When you're not being listened too and your complaints are ignored, it makes you want to SCREAM.

**listened to

Wouldn't want to give credence to the thick Irish stereotype.

Exactly @Giantbanger

I'm astounded by the mods response to this ! I'd never noticed 'beyond the pale' in the talk guidelines but even after it's been pointed out, their just going to leave it there 🙄

I'm scoffing at this thread still not making it into the trending section of the homepage.

Yep. This is exactly what I expected, it is always their response to Irish people pointing out how entirely fucking offensive the prevailing attitude on this site is. Nothing gets done, we will be dismissed time and again.

Why is it, lads, that we continue to use this site and, in doing so, allow them to generate advertising revenue from our registration whilst slapping us down every time we raise these issues? Because it is EVERY time.

If @mnhq doesn’t acknowledge my complaints for anti Irish racism, does this mean they won’t show on the spreadsheet (I assume) they have for racist reports and outcomes?

Ok, I have put this together. I will email it to HQ and I will also start a thread for anyone who agrees to sign their username to it. I will also post it on as many threads as I can and anyone else who wishes to do so should too. This is first draft so if anyone has anything to add or change go ahead. In it is a link to this thread and a link to the talk guidelines.

“Mumsnet HQ have asserted their intention to knowingly continue to use racially offensive language in their talk guidelines. The phrase “beyond the pale” dates back to the 14th century, when the part of Ireland that was under English rule was delineated by a boundary made of such stakes or fences, and known as the English Pale. To travel outside of that boundary, beyond the pale, was to leave behind all the rules and institutions of English society, which the English modestly considered synonymous with civilization itself. The phrase is rooted in the oppression of the Irish people by the English ruling classes and is hugely offensive to Irish people. In refusing to remove this phrase from their talk guidelines Mumsnet HQ are deliberately and knowingly operating in breach of The Equality Act 2010 which states that. We are asking Mumsnet HQ to apologise for the offense caused by their use of this deeply offensive phrase and to remove it from their talk guidelines.

Furthermore, in the anticipation of increased anti Irish sentiment in the U.K. as a result of Brexit negotiations and implementation we are asking that all staff at Mumsnet HQ undergo training to create an understanding of the complexities of the Anglo-Irish relationship with the aim that all staff will recognise both subtle and blatant anti Irish posts and threads as soon as they are made aware of them. We ask that talk guidelines are applied consistently across the forum for all protected characteristics and that racist posts towards or about Irish people are removed immediately.”

I’m might goto ECNI on Monday, if we don’t get a better response before then.

I wouldn’t put beyond the Pale first istandwithposie only because the issue is so much bigger.

Oh I forgot to add the relevant part of the equality act!

Also some protected characteristics are more equal than others needs to be in there I think, to highlight the difference with how the trans issue is moderated.

I wouldn’t put beyond the Pale first istandwithposie only because the issue is so much bigger.

Agreed. I think we need to frame the wider issue and then use the beyond the pale issue as an example in action.