“Racism” towards the Irish on here

[Giantbanger]

Can we please talk about it and can you please get your mods some training.

There was a thread that stood from yesterday. The op was goady and people were reporting the fuck out of it from yesterday.

It went this morning because the op was previously banned for being goady. No surprises there then.

But it contained a post from a member of MNHQ that really bothered me and I would like to discuss.

Add message | Report | Message poster EstherMumsnet (MNHQ) Mon 29-Oct-18 19:43:38
Hello!
Thanks for all the reports on this one. We'd like to leave this up as it's a pretty interesting discussion - one for the colonial/post colonial literature experts perhaps (yes - we know there's an argument over whether Irish literature counts as such!) - so please keep to the spirit of the site when discussing this and make your points politely. Thanks

So if there’s a “racist” thread about the Irish, it is an interesting discussion and the Irish need to be polite when telling racists they are racists.

(And Yes. I know in the dictionary definition Irish isn’t a race. It’s a subset ethnicity of Caucasian but the term is used more broadly in general use than the dictionary definition.)

Giantbanger, it's clear that they DON'T get it. But let's hope that from here on it, they'll believe us and react when we report something as offensive to Irish people. I've generally got cross and moved on when I've read these type of comments in the past.
No more. I will report each and every timeffort from this day forth. And you can be sure there will be many comments in the months ahead.

No more.

#misefreisin

This is about so much more than beyond the pale Michael.

You really really don’t get it do you.

It’s such a shame.

www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=beyond%20the%20pale

The phrase "beyond the pale" dates back to the 14th century, when the part of Ireland that was under English rule was delineated by a boundary made of such stakes or fences, and known as the English Pale. To travel outside of that boundary, beyond the pale, was to leave behind all the rules and institutions of English society, which the English modestly considered synonymous with civilization itself.

Given that is even part of the etymology, how can you consider it acceptable? It’s racist. Any of us from Ireland outside the boundary of the literal fence are uncivilised. How is that acceptable?

We do take your point on ‘beyond the pale’, but there seems to be a general consensus among etymology types that it’s an idiom which has long evolved from its offensive historical context. Our approach is based on whether a term is currently used in an ordinary descriptive sense about a group of people and intended pejoratively. We don’t feel that is the case here.

Does the phrase really mean that much to you at MN that you will deliberately and knowingly choose to offend your users rather than rephrasing what you want to say? Why is that phrase so important to you that you have to use it?

and to deal with them as speedily as possible.

4 days. 4 days Michael.

And that is all you can come up with? Seriously?

The point of beyond the pale is that it’s very roots are in an offensive thing that happened to a people under colonisation. They were put outside the Pale and considered barbarians.

How you can defend its use in the actual talk guidelines of this site is utterly beyond me.

Michael, it doesn't have to be DELIBERATELY racist to BE racist.

And you will not find Irish people use the term 'beyond the pale.' It may have evolved into common usage and its offensive origins forgotten to many but that does not mean that it isn't offensive. You've seen that, acknowledged that and are still prepared to leave the phrase there instead of substituting another phrase?

It may have evolved in “etymology types” in England, but it hasn’t in Ireland and as such is offensive to the Irish, which makes it racist.

I think a lot of the issue here is that so much of the anti Irish sentiment is subtle and so ingrained in British culture that Mumsnet HQ themselves struggle to understand. We're asking Mumsnet mods to be more understanding and "woke" than the general population. However that's the stance they've taken with discussion on trans issues (it seems to me - I'm no expert).

that can’t be the response. Is that it? That’s what has taken them 4 days to put together? Is Michael on his own up in the tower? There’s something going on here and I really don’t like it. Something is being held back here.

Sorry I posted before seeing hq response! Will read now

Why is your stance that some protected characteristics are more worthy than others? Why is racism to the Irish not moderated as robustly as trans? Both are protected characterises and the Troubles caused the literal deaths of thousands of people.

This is so disappointing, MNHQ. And that's Haitch Q.

You clearly just don't want to get it.

How can you have craicnet?

It’s beoynd the Pale. It couldn’t be more beyond the Pale. You should probably think of renaming it.

If that^ is HQs final response to this issue then they have firmly nailed their colours go the mast. We have their position. They are going to continue to use racially offensive language. that’s says it all. I’m ready to share this accross and outside of the forum now.

And who are these etymology types that you've canvassed to achieve a consensus from? Any irish types in there? Or is it just English types who have decided it's moved on from being offensive? Can you tell us exactly what research you've done to come to this decision?

The ordinary descriptive sense of beyond the pale IS racist and offensive. It’s totally based on that. It’s not considered acceptable in Ireland. So you’re saying because English etymology types (dismissive tone) don’t think it’s a problem then you’re going to continue to be racist?and that’s ok because why? How come?

So the resident MNHQ 'etymology types' (?) opinion outweighs that of a large number of Irish posters who have gone to considerable efforts to explain why this term is offensive.

It doesn't need to be 'intended pejoratively' in order to have a pejorative impact on hearers. Children playing with golliwogs weren't doing so with the intent of promoting a grotesque caricature of black features, but no one is suggesting we revive them as this year's Big Christmas Toy.

And 'welcome' is an interesting choice of word in the circumstances. Are you conceiving of MN's Irish members as visitors, rather than a permanent part of the landscape of Mn, and who shouldn't make demands?

You have explicitly said that yes, it is offensive, you can see that. But you're not going to change it. And we can just suck it up. That's just dochreidte.

So paragraph 1, relates to an issue we raised this morning.

It’s taken MNHQ four days to apologise for not removing offensive posts more quickly.

FOUR DAYS

I’m just going to sit here an enjoy the irony a bit more.

Why do you believe the provisions of the Equality Act don’t apply to racism towards the Irish posters on mumsnet?

You have admitted the phrase is racist and yet you’re going to continue to use it. So that makes MN racist. You’ve admitted a deliberate breach of the Equality Act.

And yes, what Craic said. This is about so much more than beyond the pale.

What about the original mod statement I pasted in my op, for exam0le?

What about the thread on Ireland and the Canadian border, Michael, and the fact that you expected me to go through it and be more “specific” when I had reported the whole thread? And it stood for over a week, despite earlier reports by me.

Haitch Q

We agree - and it's part of our Talk Guidelines - that we generally should delete posts which are deliberately designed to inflame - sometimes, as in this case, it takes a little time to establish that, however but we'll certainly think about (and do think about) how, as a moderation team, we can speed up our response time.

Michael, our point about the Irish authors thread is that the time taken to realise it was designed to inflame should've been the time taken to read it.

It was blatant, and the fact that it was left up for so long despite so many reports is shocking. This speaks to the wider issue of MNHQ just not getting the strength of anti Irish sentiment on the boards.

Others have mentioned the "throwing a Paddy" phrase. Could MNHQ please take a stand on this, and delete it as they would other offensive terms? It continues to bewilder me that it's allowed.

Can we have a stance on deleting posts that claim Ireland is not a race when posters are told they’ve been racist towards the Irish?

Zero insight shown into the issues we have raised about the persistent overlooking of anti-Irish sentiments on this website.

Zero insight as to the probability anti-Irish sentiment will increase the closer we get to Brexit

No response to our suggestion that MNHQ has greater sensitivity to the kind of posts and threads which are trying to inflame anti-Irish attitudes.

Just someone showing off some big words they learnt on their English Literature degree.

And the thread that inspired this wasn’t even deleted for being racist. Can we have statement of a stance on that too please.

Hope you're ok Op 😢