Mumsnet moderation of trans rights and gender critical issues II

[PermissionToSpeakSir]

Follow on from www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/3276551-Mumsnet-moderation-of-trans-rights-and-gender-critical-issues?pg=40&order=

Re harming women- you can see it already where those diagnosed with autism are saying they can't bear the obfuscation at play now on FWR.

I imagine that is because cognitive dissonance is causing them real distress. That's being provoked by being told what they know and see and sense is now not allowed to be expressed.

Cognitive dissonance is the major red flag for thought reform and undue influence at play - in other words it signals you are being abused. To ignore it is to put yourself at peril. In DV situations, the woman would be told she is being subjected to emotional and psychological abuse and should leave the abusive relationship ASAP.

MN - your moderation is putting women in harms way. Since when has that become the MO of MN?

Gibb, are you objecting to 'misgendering', or 'missexing' or both?

Would you say there's a difference between the two?

Yes and yes. I think misgendering applies to transwomen in generality and mis-sexing to those with a GRC as a subset

"My recorded objection to TIM was that it referred to trans women as male."

You can object all you want but they are Male= Of the sex that can make sperm, as defined in any dictionary.

However they change their outward appearance with makeup, hormones and surgery, they will never be Female = Of the sex that can make eggs or bear young. Again, dictionary definition of the word Female.

Much as you hadn't heard of either Miranda Yardley or Caitlyn Jenner?

Unconvincingly disingenuous.

Re harming women- you can see it already where those diagnosed with autism are saying they can't bear the obfuscation at play now on FWR.

My partner is autistic. What gets her is people refusing to see trans women as women.

So transwoman with a GRC are different to someone who just 'self identifies'?

The things is gib, many of us received good solid Social science educations and understand well the nature of gender as a societal construct. That knowledge long predates the TRA efforts to quash it.

Similarly, many of us have had excellent Medical or Science educations and understand the concrete nature of biological sex because they have studied in great depth. You won’t be able to override that deeply held knowledge with slogans, either.

Ditto law graduates, solicitors and HR professionals who can see the contradictions and clashes in the legislation so clearly or know through substantial experience how trying to encode conflicting rights into policy will cause issues.

It’ll take far more than a blithe remark that you choose to misinterpret the legislation and therefore we should all follow suit.

What you want is everyone to ignore their own educations, analyses and personal & professional experience and just blindly swear allegiance to a nonsense.

It’s not going to happen. You can hound and harass heretics, you can burn them at the stake, but it doesn’t work, you can’t stamp out knowledge.

My partner is autistic

And my wife is black.

When we see and hear and read a woman, we see and hear and read a woman. And when we see and hear and read a man, we see and hear and read a man.

This is known extremely well and thoroughly by women who have 10, 20, 30, 40, 50+ years of life experience of this.

When I gave a witness statement to the police after witnessing a man attacking a woman on a street, these facts came first in my statement, and they were very helpful in establishing what I witnessed, and in getting the case to court.

Just to clarify:

You don't seem to worry too much about transmen.

But if I tell you I'm a man, then someone referring to me as 'she' is misgendering me.

However, if I go on to obtain a GRC, then they'd be mis-sexing me?

Gibberty: When you say that people 'refuse' to see trans women as women, your use of the term "refusing" suggests that there's a choice involved - people could see trans women as women, but choose not to. Have you ever considered though, that people aren't refusing to see trans women as women but that they have an inability to? If you point to your dog and say 'that's a cat', and I reply "no, that's a dog", I'm not "refusing" to see your dog as a cat. Rather, I simply cannot see your dog as a cat because your dog is a dog.

Yes and yes. I think misgendering applies to transwomen in generality and mis-sexing to those with a GRC as a subset

A GRC alters legal status. It doesn’t alter biological sex. There is nothing that can alter biological sex.

Why are you struggling with this?

I think most of us would respect a GRC. But what we’re pointing out is that the basis of oppression is different. Because the biology is different.

I just want to say thank you to @womanformallyknownaswoman. Excellent posts 👏

twitter.com/lostinmcmuffins/status/1006953127105449989?s=19

This is what you started ...

My partner is autistic. What gets her is people refusing to see trans women as women.

I’m autistic gib. I don’t see the relevance. If anything, autists are usually more analytical, more clear about fact versus narrative.

Can you explain that Gibberty?

My daughter is also autistic.

Frankly, Gib, that's not just flailing but also deeply offensive.

Autism =/= inability to process factual information.

What gets her is people refusing to see trans women as women.

Gib don’t you see that you cannot and will never be able to bully, nag, legislate people into “seeing” what it is you want them to see?

I’d respect your partner’s chosen social role, pronouns etc if I met her.
There wouldn’t be an issue. I’d do anything to support a campaign for better GID healthcare provision, or to promote acceptance, or to get GRC panel waiting times down.

What I won’t do is pretend to believe a lie. You’re creating tension where there needn’t be any, by demanding everyone swear their belief in a flat earth.

"A GRC alters legal status. It doesn’t alter biological sex. There is nothing that can alter biological sex."

Maybe that is the compromise we need to get along - use only the terms biological sex or legal sex rather than just sex which means different things to different people?

I just want to say thank you to @womanformallyknownaswoman. Excellent posts 👏

Me too.

It's the old "if you would just do this one thing, I'll be happy." Then when you do that one thing, surprise surprise there's the next thing you need to change.

Define ‘woman’.
Define ‘man’.

Battleax: But what we’re pointing out is that the basis of oppression is different. Because the biology is different.

Yes, exactly this. Women have always been oppressed because of our female biology.

Men just do not have the experience of childhood as a female and growing up as a female and female puberty etc etc etc.

Maybe that is the compromise we need to get along - use only the terms biological sex or legal sex rather than just sex which means different things to different people?

Fine by me. That was working fine until the calls for self-ID started.

How about we go with gender presentation?

Your partner is absolutely welcome to that.

I would stand shoulder to shoulder with you both for your rights based on that.

But biological sex is immutable.

Actually I think the biggest thing about autism can be struggling in social relationships