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Mumsnet moderation of trans rights and gender critical issues II

744 replies

PermissionToSpeakSir · 13/06/2018 22:54

Follow on from www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/3276551-Mumsnet-moderation-of-trans-rights-and-gender-critical-issues?pg=40&order=

OP posts:
PurpleCrowbar · 14/06/2018 01:33

No. That's terrible science. We've been over this.

You haven't acknowledged that intersex organisations have been very very clear that they are NOT to be co-opted.

That's fundamentally dishonest.

You have a trans partner & you are sticking up for your lover - good for you.

Intersex people are not chess pieces on your board, & it's quite frightful that you are trying to appropriate them.

You have as I understand it a biologically male partner who chooses to identify as female.

I hope you are entirely happy together, but please, stop taking the piss - your other half is male, simple as.

Battleax · 14/06/2018 01:33

There's also a pretty large gap between "self ID is sensible" and wanting to be able to exclude transvestites, who will use self ID to include themselves regardless of how uncomfortable it makes everyone else.

YY.

Can’t you see the glaring contradiction gib?

AngryAttackKittens · 14/06/2018 01:34

If my partner, who is male, was insistent that I pursue activism that would harm other women I'd refuse. I'm not willing to lie on his command no matter how much I love him, or force other women to do so.

GibbertyFlibbert · 14/06/2018 01:34

curious to see whether the blunt "this is total bollocks" type comments are deleted. Are women here still allowed to point out that something someone has said is utterly out of touch with reality? Even if doing so upsets a trans activist?

It's not upsetting me and I haven't reported anything on this thread. Even on the previous thread, out of 1,000 posts I only reported 2 so far as I recall

Maryz · 14/06/2018 01:35

Jaysus, is Gibberty still gibbering on? Gibberty are you implying that all trans people are intersex? I don't think some of them would like that you know.

A baby girl is a girl. You know it, I know it, we all know it. Pretending that the 0.05% of the population that have "ambiguous" genitalia are all trans is offensive. Pretending that the 49.9% of the population born with a penis might be female because (a) we might have mistaken their penis for a vulva or (b) they want to wear pink is fucking stupid.

What's wrong with being a "feminine" man or a "masculine" woman. Or a person with a personality ffs.

LightofaSilveryMoon · 14/06/2018 01:35

Keep penises out of women's single-sex spaces. The End.

AngryAttackKittens · 14/06/2018 01:36

I often rather like feminine men. They're still men though.

GibbertyFlibbert · 14/06/2018 01:36

"who will use self ID to include themselves regardless of how uncomfortable it makes everyone else."

They won't. They don't get passports and driving licences now (they want to live as male most of the time) so why would they get a birth certificate?

GibbertyFlibbert · 14/06/2018 01:39

Gibberty are you implying that all trans people are intersex?

No. I am saying that there is a physical cause in most cases for gender dysphoria which is so strong that people permanently transition - and physical cause = intersex

Battleax · 14/06/2018 01:39

Don’t you even understand that self ID won’t work like that gib? Confused

GibbertyFlibbert · 14/06/2018 01:41

You have as I understand it a biologically male partner who chooses to identify as female.

No she is biologically female

AngryAttackKittens · 14/06/2018 01:42

I think Gib knows very well that if self-ID is passed into law nobody will be allowed to ask for proof that a particular individual is trans. Are we allowed to say that we don't think someone is arguing in good faith?

GibbertyFlibbert · 14/06/2018 01:42

Don’t you even understand that self ID won’t work like that gib?

In what way?

LightofaSilveryMoon · 14/06/2018 01:43

Keep penises out of women's single-sex spaces.
There is no consent for men in women's single-sex spaces
The End.

WeeBisom · 14/06/2018 01:43

Gibberty:
This reply is kinda long, but it's highly contentious to claim that sex is a social construct, and then to further argue that because sex is a social construct males can change into females and vice versa. The first claim is false, and the second claim just doesn't follow.

What is a social construct? Money is a good example of a social construct. Humans have got together, as a society, and decided that certain objects (flat metal discs, pieces of paper) constitute 'money', and that money has a certain value. One can exchange money for other goods. One way you can tell if something is a social construct is to ask yourself a question - if all the humans suddenly disappeared, would that thing still exist? Or does it need human society to continue to exist? Money is clearly a social construct. Without human beings, money is just bits of paper with no value. Without society supporting the construct, money quickly becomes useless and meaningless.

Sex is not a social construct. In philosophy, for instance, philosophers acknowledge that sex is what's called a 'natural kind' - it's a stable cluster of properties that are objective, and real in nature (other natural kinds include species, water, gasses, plants, etc). Sex is not a social construct because if all the human beings disappeared sex would still exist - animals and plants have sexes, and reproduce sexually. Even if society broke down, sex would still exist. We would still have males, we would still have females, and reproduction would still occur. Sex exists no matter how humans think about it. Sex isn't 'assigned'. Rather, it is observed - there are certain physical properties (genitals, for instance) that are highly reliable indicators of one's biological sex. A mother observes her newborn has a penis and infers, quite rightly, that he is a male.

What IS a social construct is the meaning we attach to sex (which was traditionally called 'gender'). It's a social construct that the female sex are weak,hysterical, stupid, emotional, fond of fashion, etc. So the significance and importance we attach to sex may very well be a social construct, but sex itself is not. So your first point is wrong.

Suppose we grant that you are actually correct, though, and that sex is a social construct. Does it thereby follow that males can change into females and vice versa? Does this render the social construct arbitrary and fluid? No, it does not. To return to the example of money; money is a social construct but that doesn't mean I can declare that my 10 pound note is actually worth 100 pounds. Once we agree on what social constructs mean, and we set the boundaries and parameters, the social constructs end up with truth conditions attached to them - they can't just be arbitrarily changed by the whims of individuals. We have all collectively agreed what the value of money is, and I can't just unilaterally declare that it means something else.

To return to sex, even if sex is a social construct, we've still decided as a society that sex cannot be changed once it is 'assigned' (to use your terminology). It is not part of the social construct that males can become females, and females can become males.

Note, you are also contradicting yourself by saying that sex is a social construct, and yet the assignment turns out to be wrong in some individuals. If sex is purely a social construct, then the assignment of sex at birth settles the matter of what one's sex is. That's just what sex is, on the social construction view - an assignment at birth. When you say that the assignment 'turns out to be wrong', you are implicitly relying on there being something besides the act of assignment that constitutes sex. What you're really saying is "in the case of certain individuals, the assignment gets their sex wrong because their REAL sex is actually female." But on the social constructivist view there is no such thing as REAL sex independent of the assignment. So you're stuck. You have to either accept 1) sex is a social construct and assigned at birth, which means that your assigned sex just is your sex - period. Or 2) there is such a thing as sex, objectively speaking, that can clash with an 'assigned' sex at birth. And this is what someone's real sex is. But that's not a social constructivist position - that's a realist position about sex. Hope this clears things up.

Maryz · 14/06/2018 01:43

It's just that you keep saying that male people who identify as women aren't XY - which is obviously bollocks; the vast majority of them are genetically male.

I have never seen any evidence that there is a chromosomal background to males who think they are females. Is there one? If so, please show us the evidence. If not is it really too much to ask that you stop co-opting intersex people to prove an inaccurate tenuous point, especially as intersex people (as you well know) have asked to be left out of this argument? It's rude to ignore the wishes of a whole group of people.

BlackShutters · 14/06/2018 01:45

I wish people would ignore gibberty. Reminds me of my abusive ex.

I'm feeling a bit triggered

Maryz · 14/06/2018 01:45

When Gibberty says her partner is biologically female, she means her partner was born (and still has) XY chromosomes, but in the case of her partner those chromosomes apparently are female XY chromosomes.

It's a tad confusing. What with it all being scientifically incorrect and all.

GibbertyFlibbert · 14/06/2018 01:48

I think Gib knows very well that if self-ID is passed into law nobody will be allowed to ask for proof that a particular individual is trans. Are we allowed to say that we don't think someone is arguing in good faith?

You have so little imagination Grin. For example, a gym could ask everyone for photo ID (preferably passport) plus a utility bill and copy the gender onto membership card and use that to decide whether the member used male or female changing rooms. No unlawful asking. No unlawful discrimination. And a pretty solid way of achieving same sex spaces. And it works because people can easily self-ID for driving licence and passport so there's no discrimination claim.

AtreidesFreeWoman · 14/06/2018 01:50

I'm generally not inclined to waste my time responding to Gibb(erich).

AngryAttackKittens · 14/06/2018 01:51

Or we could just keep actual same sex spaces!

GibbertyFlibbert · 14/06/2018 01:52

WeeBisom, very well argued and I agree my use of the term "social construct" was wrong. I will find a more accurate description. But the fundamental is right - assigned sex occasionally fails to match what you call "real sex"

Maryz · 14/06/2018 01:52

Still confusing sex and gender in the same sentence there Gibberty.

You really need to sort that out if you want your posts to make any sense Smile

AngryAttackKittens · 14/06/2018 01:54

I've been showing Gib's comments to DH to see if he can figure out who's being referred to when Gib uses "female". Poor guy's getting a headache.

LightofaSilveryMoon · 14/06/2018 01:58

Stilll, though - men cannot be women, ever. Biological fact.