Mumsnet moderation of trans rights and gender critical issues

[JustineMumsnet]

Hi all,
We've given lots of thought to our moderation policies around trans rights and sex and gender issues and thought it would be a good idea to articulate where we stand in the form of a clear statement, so everyone can be clear about our moderation going forward. You can find it here. Hope it provides a helpful reference point. Thanks.

Some who is cis is either male or female and does not have the protected characteristic of gender reassignment.

So male/female would suffice

Incidentally I deliberately use TRA as I am very well aware that not all transgender people are of the same mindset.

I thought that's why TRA was used, to acknowledge that not all transpeople are part of activism like the demonstration outside of women's meetings?

And again we have Gibberty asserting that a person's sex is defined by what clothes they wear [baffled]

I look forward to future biology lessons. "Now children, we come to the birds and the bees. If a long-haired person wearing a dress gets kissy kissy with a short-haired person wearing trousers, one of them will grow a baby in their tummy".

ffs.

I don't like transwoman either as a term to describe an XY chromosome person. What words may we use to describe XY people?

Wouldn’t it be fun to get suspended for thrashing out definitions?

MNHQ: I don't see what's wrong with TIM. Can you explain.

Terf is obviously abusive as well as inaccurate. Cis is inaccurate and demeaning as a result of that. I don't see the issue with TIM except they don't like it. But they don't have to come here and see it. Is there any other reason than that.

One side has been silenced

^This!

These new "rules" are unworkable. If we cant use the correct terms to describe what is happening then we cant discuss what is happening.

I think mumsnet have just made it very clear where they stand on the issue and dont give a crap about what happens to girls and women.

Well done MNHQ. And thanks for continuing to host this debate.

The only part I strongly disagree with are possible deletions for 'cis' and 'TIM'. This will make it difficult for both sides to articulate their arguments. I don't think that the intention with either word is always to offend.

Can we say TIM to each other in conversation but not to a male who is transgender? Literally don't know what to say if not TIM! Though tixy is nice.

Tixy seems neat? Are you a cis identifying XX?

You're telling somebody who identifies as a woman that they don't identify as a woman but as trans. You don't get a say in how other people identify. You can say you think they're wrong, but you can't say they don't think what they think.

Yes dragon! That's the whole idea - TRA just want to take away ability even to discuss it! If they can't take away the platform they take away the language!

@JustineMumsnet Personally, I find the term 'cis' offensive, but it should be allowed to stand because many, many other people are ok with it, and banning it will harm those wanting to discuss things from a Trans positive position.

I use TRA to specifically signify those who are causing problems for everyone - because they do. TRA's are causing huge issues in Trans, Lesbian, Gay and Feminist communities. They are a tiny group creating chaos.

A TRA has already been convicted of assault on a feminist. If we can't name those who damage all of us, what then?

What is the planned notification system to those who are in a six week rolling suspension period? The appeals process? Does the suspension apply only to the Feminism boards or is it site wide?

I understand it's hard to find a middle way. This is your business, your living. I get it.

We are your customers. We are the reason you attract advertisers and endorsement deals. While we'll never reach consensus, human nature being as it is, some consultation would help. A simple questionnaire, an algorithim collecting basic occurrences, something.

I quite like TIXY.

Nothing wrong with 'trans'; 'identified' - well, much of the issue centres on how people 'identify'; XY is unarguable.

Agree with PPs that I'd rather 'cis' be allowed. I find it offensive, but I think it's more constructive to explain why for the lurkers rather than just to zap it on sight.

What do you mean, 'identify as', goldenbug?

MNHQ please could you help out with this question Can we say TIM to each other in conversation but not to a male who is transgender?

Thanks very much.

So surely we can say Lily Munroe who has a penis

No because she doesn't have a penis. If you mean Madigan...that is the question to ask.

this is where coercive control training for mods would be useful

I think essential rather than useful.

Maybe we should just keep TIM, TIF, TERF and cis? And everyone can lump it all round?

Like I say, no horse in this race.

I don't think Cis and Terf should be deleted as we need to see how they are used as slurs, and how they are far from neutral terminology.

Maybe we should just keep TIM, TIF, TERF and cis? And everyone can lump it all round?

I vote for this.

Terf and cis are inaccurate tho, so I don't really get that
But happy to go along with majority

"And again we have Gibberty asserting that a person's sex is defined by what clothes they wear"

I am explaining the Equality Act 2010 does not use sex to mean biological sex. Read S7 and the accompanying note because the section on the protected characteristic of gender reassignment gives more information about the meaning of the term sex.

Maybe we should just keep TIM, TIF, TERF and cis? And everyone can lump it all round?

Yup. That’s my preference

Yes it does. Your problem is that you don't know what 'sex' is, so you don't understand the Equality Act.

Maybe the mods are going for a bit less of an AIBU tone of debate, ie asking us to be mindful of the impact of language rather than saying ‘let’s keep everything that offends and let both sides insult each other as they please’. I am not sure that’s constructive.

I don’t feel particularly silenced. If I talk about someone as a transwoman, it is self evident that they are male - otherwise they wouldn’t be a transwoman, would they? There would be nothing to transition from if they were female. I think transmen and transwomen are about the most neutral terms accepted by both gender activists and gender critical feminists that we’ve got, so might as well use them, rather than trying to wriggle around calling people tixies and such like.