Mumsnet moderation of trans rights and gender critical issues

[JustineMumsnet]

Hi all,
We've given lots of thought to our moderation policies around trans rights and sex and gender issues and thought it would be a good idea to articulate where we stand in the form of a clear statement, so everyone can be clear about our moderation going forward. You can find it here. Hope it provides a helpful reference point. Thanks.

So Gibberty, I presume you want everyone to refer to every male person who is in the process of or has transitioned to be referred to as a woman. Full stop. Or female. Full stop. That is factually incorrect.

Justine, can we still say "Transwomen are male". Or "She is/was a man" talking about, for example, Caitlyn Jenner. If TiM isn't allowed, and no reference to man/male is allowed, you are stifling conversation and putting paid to any sensible debate.

I mean, the whole point is that transactivists (and I agree with DrawingLife that it's important to be able to say TRA or TA to refer to the aggressive trans activists who are deliberately setting out to stomp on women's rights and distinguish them from the ordinary transpeople who just want to get on with their lives) want to stop anyone pointing out that transwomen were born male and will be male no matter what physical or hormonal changes they make.

If we can't say that, then there is no debate to be had. One side has been silenced.

How do you expect

Rat, what is a feminine/masculine presenting trans person exactly?

How do you tell? Clothes? Make-up? It is based on looks and that is transphobic surely?

And what if someone identifies as non-binary? Neither masculine nor feminine presenting trans person? Really?

Men who identify as transgender. Women who identify as transgender. If you can't even say that then we are into territory where words don't actually have any meaning.

All sounded fair and fine, until I reached “trans identified male “ . I don’t understand how to proceed in dialogue without using that term. Trans woman to me is a trans identified female, I think the shift in language, (to avoid transexual, which only applies to post surgery people), has been very damaging and is intentionally used to imply that they are a subset of women, which is obviously not the case.
I had assumed it was the acceptable term, given that it is the truth. Is simply “male “ ? Ok then ?

Stick close to Equality Act.

A transwoman has protected characteristic of gender reassignment. A gender reassigned male (biological sex term). So a “GRM” a transman is a “GRF”

"feminine/masculine presenting trans person" doesn't cut it.

Some transwomen don't present in a "feminine" way - or do you want to exclude Danielle Muscato and Philip Bunce from being trans? That's transphobic.

By the way, if we are banning loads of words, can we ban the persistent calling of posters (and mn as a whole) as transphobic. It's become rather tiresome.

I have a few clarifications.

1. Does this policy only apply to posts in the feminist section or will it apply to any posts that mention trans across the website. I'm thinking of the CBB, the Ian Huntley and school races threads which appear elsewhere. If it does apply site wide then this warning needs to be posted site wide, at the moment I can only see it pinned to the feminist board.

1. Is this policy retroactive? I would strongly suggest it is not as you will have people going through historical posts to report.

1. Are you going to notify users that they have received a strike?

1. Are posters going to receive a strike for quoting a subsequently deleted post?

We are allowed to talk about biology. So surely we can say Lily Munroe who has a penis?

Thanks MNHQ.

I disagree totally with disallowing/deleting for TIM or cis. I personally don’t like cis as a term but I don’t care if I’m offended and I think these terms should be allowed.

Totally agree with this.

That sounds fine Elletorro.

I don't mind typing it in full if people object to acronyms. Same for Trans Activists, if it's the use of "TRA" that's offensive.

The first guideline is:

1. We believe in free speech and civil debate. So we will, for instance, allow people to discuss biology and scientific evidence.

A man who identifies as a woman is male.

And a man.

Science innit?

...it's important to be able to say TRA or TA to refer to the aggressive trans activists... but not all Trans Rights Activists are aggressive. Some activism consists of writing letters of complaint to companies or organisations. Not exactly aggressive.

RatRolyPoly
what about feminine/masculine presenting trans person?

How would that work for someone like Alex Drummond? XY, dress, beard.
Am I (XX) masculine presenting with my flat shoes, trousers & tshirt?

TRA is used a lot to dismiss anyone without a GC opinion.

GC poster: I don't consider trans women to be women

Pro trans poster: I disagree, I think they are

GC poster: oh you're just a TRA / the TRAs are out in force today.

(Usually followed by a Twitter screen shot / YouTube link of a TRA saying something shocking and an assertion the pro trans poster supports it)

Could we talk about a 'trans person who was born male'?

I use the term TRA (Trans rights' activist) to distinguish between those who are actively involved in promoting and securing rights for people who are transgender from all people who are transgender. Also in recognition that there will be parents, friends and allies who will be TRA.

I first became aware of the term when Rebecca Root was interviewed on Victoria Derbyshire. From memory, she used the term to describe herself.

Daim additionally, I usually deliberately write 'some TRA' which for me, is an important clarification.

A transwoman has protected characteristic of gender reassignment. A gender reassigned male (biological sex term). So a “GRM” a transman is a “GRF”

No. Section 7 of Equality Act 2010 talks about changing aspects of sex and the accompanying example in the Explanatory Notes there's an example that this includes entirely social aspects so the Equality Act 2010 term sex is not biological

I understand trans identified male can be offensive.

But transwoman is equally, not more offensive.

Being a woman is not a choice. It isnt an identity.

Could be survivors of FGM, the women dying in menstrual huts, the female foetuses who never got to be women as they were aborted purley because of their biology, identify out of that?

Of course not. When people are still actively being killed for a biological reality lets not pretend its some abstract "feeling". Because that is offensive.

A cross dressing male who doesn’t have the protected characteristic of gender reassignment is just a man.

Gender reassignment is more than just cross dressing

I do like how Daimbar is demonstrating the "give an inch, take a mile" mindset.

The gender critical stance is being far more tightly constrained, yet Daimbar is asking for TRA and AGP to be considered.

Incidentally I deliberately use TRA as I am very well aware that not all transgender people are of the same mindset.

OK, if it makes you happy I'll distinguish between (1) ordinary transpeople going about their daily lives, (2) transactivists who politely write letters to their MPs and (3) aggressive transactivists who are trying to invade women's spaces and are all over social media (and real life) threatening violence to anyone who disagrees with them.

Shall I use the term ATRAs?

Surely most sensible transpeople are also horrified by some of the words/actions of the ATRAs and would welcome the distinction.

A lot of people use the term cis to describe themselves but in the context of this forum it is seen as goady. The same goes for TRA.

To discuss feminism we still need to identify males as males, despite their gender identity. And that seems to be the problem, will I be deleted for saying 'male women' or 'male transperson' or 'male person'? Or by simply including them as part of the male population?

Also, the three strikes and you're out rule will have certain posters targeted.

transwoman is equally, not more offensive

Agree, I will report this when I see it

Tixy seems neat?