Mumsnet moderation of trans rights and gender critical issues

[JustineMumsnet]

Hi all,
We've given lots of thought to our moderation policies around trans rights and sex and gender issues and thought it would be a good idea to articulate where we stand in the form of a clear statement, so everyone can be clear about our moderation going forward. You can find it here. Hope it provides a helpful reference point. Thanks.

st want to point out I'm a lesbian and have had more hostility on this board than any other place on the Internet

Thats nothing to do with you being a lesbian

"Refusing to accept the identity of trans people is mean."

I disagree. Robustly, which MNHQ has allowed.

Stating your identity is your prerogative.

Rejecting it, deeming it false, insulting, disingenuous, appropriative, not grounded in fact, failing to meet any credible criteria, deliberately provocative and unworthy of respect or any other judgement is mine. Hypothetically.

I am not honour bound to respect or validate your identity if I judge it not to be worthy of my respect.

If you identified as a flat-earther I'd not respect that identity as especially worthy.
If you identified as a labour supporter whilst being a fully paid up member of the tories I'd consider you a liar.
If you identified as a scientist whilst lobbying for creationism to be part of the science curriculum I'd challenge your credentials.

And YOU enjoy EXACTLY the same right regarding any identity I might state.

We do not have to respect each other's identities.
I am certain you would reject mine if it undermined your own.

We are free to reject each other's proclaimed identity because identity is a subjective feeling without any substantive criteria, and often contradicts reality.

What we cannot reject is objective fact.

A subjective feeling doesn't magically become fact merely because it has been spoken out loud.

Why not start off by expecting the best of people

Because #metoo. That’s why. As we've said again and again and again and again and again and again...

Just a couple of thoughts from me:
The people who have been screaming and stamping their feet about tim being so offensive, why haven’t they also called for tif to be banned? If one is literal violence, then why isn’t the other? A great big flashing neon sign pointing directly at people this campaign is intended to benefit methinks.
This is a feminism board, yet we are having our language restricted to protect the feelings of men. Is anyone else tripping over this massive chunk of irony?
Up to now I have always used transwoman, out of respect for peoples wish to define themselves. If I am now to lie by force rather than lie by choice, I will not lie at all. I have the same right to free speech as anyone in this land, and I will not have my language restricted by those who wish to subjugate my identity in order to affirm their own. Respect goes both ways, and if they show me none, they will get none back from me.

daim, are you a male lesbian or a female lesbian?

And can you tell me what the difference between the two is please?

Barracker

I agree with every word. Well said.

Is @MNHQ going to throw Lesbians who are female under the bus for the sake of males who identify as lesbians?
WTF are they thinking?
What are they going to do to the transwidows?

So a women who identifies as lesbian who has no issue with trans people is not allowed to identify as lesbian?

That will be the truthsayer again

The world is different in Brighton.

"Refusing to accept the identity of trans people is mean."

I disagree. Robustly, which MNHQ has allowed.

I don't understand the policy as allowing trans women to be referred to as male in any way (other than the handful of ones who ID as male). There are two key points in the new policy:-

We don’t allow posts which are derogatory or aggressive towards trans people. We believe there are ways to express both opinion and facts without crossing this line.

Refusing to accept people's identity when they are out there in the world living it is derogatory IMO. And

Sweeping negative generalisations about any group, including trans people and gender-critical feminists, won’t be tolerated.

The accusation that trans women aren't female is about as sweeping a negative generalisation as it gets.

We will have to see what happens but if Mumsnet still allows people to refuse to accept trans women as women then we have made no real progress.

Maybe we should just keep TIM, TIF, TERF and cis? And everyone can lump it all round?

Yep. There's no way to have this conversation without anyone reading words they don't like. A policy of deleting for every word that one group or the other doesn't like will make conversations like wading through treacle.

The world is different in Brighton

I agree to that. It's probably one of the few places in the country where you might meet a trans person in RL and realise they're not as scary as you think.

Gibberty you can’t ban people from refusing to accept transwomen as female! You can’t dictate what people think and people have a right to hold that view.

So you throw every other lesbian under the bus for not wanting to accept 'female' dick?

Defies fucking belief. And reason

So a women who identifies as lesbian who has no issue with trans people is not allowed to identify as lesbian?

Homosexuality is about what sex you are attracted to (in the case of lesbians females exclusively attracted to females)

It is nothing to do with identity. The clue is in the name

Saying that lesbians must accept transwomen, who are of course males, as partners is pretty homophobic.

The accusation that trans women aren't female is about as sweeping a negative generalisation as it gets.

No, it is stating a scientific fact.

And a couple of years ago even the transactivists who claimed that 'transwomen are women' accepted that they weren't female. Their argument then was that 'women' referred to gender and 'females' to sex.

The goalposts move.

Saying TW aren't female isn't a generalisation. It is a fact. A generalisation is something that doesn't hold true all the time and can therefore be offensive like "White people don't have good rhythm". A fact about a group is something that is always true like "White people have white skin."

JuzzaL with respect pretty much all lesbians accept trans women as women. There's no breakout groups from the LGBT that I've come across.

Saying that lesbians must accept transwomen, who are of course males, as partners is pretty homophobic.

Although I didn't say that, I said I have no issue with trans people.

The accusation that trans women aren't female is about as sweeping a negative generalisation as it gets

In the same way that saying the sea is cold and wet. It is scientifically proven reality.