Mumsnet moderation of trans rights and gender critical issues

[JustineMumsnet]

Hi all,
We've given lots of thought to our moderation policies around trans rights and sex and gender issues and thought it would be a good idea to articulate where we stand in the form of a clear statement, so everyone can be clear about our moderation going forward. You can find it here. Hope it provides a helpful reference point. Thanks.

There's someone on twitter whose pronouns are fuck/fuckyou/fuckoff.

I quite like we/our/us.

Legitimate. But confusing.

I'm not playing this game with you today Pratchet, fun though it is. I'm skiving work as it is without getting caught up in every little derail

Lol so no you don't have a word for a man or a woman. It's not exactly a derail to point out you have no words for the dimorphic human units that created language in the first place. How completely feeble and transparent.

Badges. It gets dafter.

There are 60 million people in the country Daim, and a few thousand GRCs. I think we can manage without badges.

"I quite like we/our/us."

Good enough for the Monarch!

I used to live in Sweden and there’s been a low level push there to get a neutral pronoun (hen) in to replace han/hon. It’s never really caught on - apparently it makes people feel a bit odd.
She/he/them/they are valid and in themselves neutral ways of referring to someone. There’s no inherent judgement in using he or she as part of normal language.

I think the insistence on language policing is indeed losing a lot of goodwill. The British generally are a very tolerant lot, but they don’t take well to be told what to think, or say.

Open debate, as robust as you like. With no personal abuse, threats or incitement to hatred.

Those ridiculous badges don’t make things easier! They deliberately complicate things.

I agree with leaving all terms on the table. The gender critical argument is entirely logical, rational, and simple to back up, every time.

However, the fact that it is transactivists who are demanding the censorship and feminists who are happy to have a free for all debate, does indeed tell you everything you need to know.

And it's patently obvious to anyone who reads mumsnet. The more they draw attention to this site and demand these petty rules, the worse it looks for them. It's a Pyrrhic victory.

They will never be able to stop showing themselves up for what they are (TRAs, btw, not all transwomen).

With regard to the actual terminology, of course baraker is completely correct.

MNHQ will not be adhering to that truth, though.

The actual acronyms, whilst testing and irritating to rethink, are, in the scheme of things meaningless. It will be the intent, as ever that is targeted.

And, I believe, even MNHQ will get to the point where, after the third or fourth incarnation, they will have had enough.

They will have to take stand on whether or not words like 'not in the spirit of things', 'personal attacks', etc are actually the result of discussing biology.

They have reiterated that you can discuss biology, and science. Which includes AGP, and the fact that humans cannot change sex.

I can't see them deciding to backtrack on that in the future.

And finally, they have had weeks and weeks to sort this statement out. They have been targeted relentlessly to go large. So I see it as fairly positive, given how negative it could have been.

A few 'work arounds' although irritating will not halt the debate. And the more people who oppose the gender critical viewpoint, the quicker the trans ideology is exposed.

I have never read all that stuff in the DSM V before, thanks for posting.

Autogynephilic fantasies and behaviors may focus on the idea of exhibiting female physiological functions (e.g., lactation, menstruation) 🤮

Is Mumsnet really saying that it is not allowed on Mumsnet to identify a person as male or female?

We need to get off our knees

I bet you wear those Daim

You have shown your form for trying to control people's language and coerce them to your opinions. Nice try at getting me banned btw. Trying for your first scalp? You have shown your tactics very clearly on this board.

Any lurkers can see what the end game is: total capitualtion to your demands, including enforced wearing those ludicrous badges.

As Joan expertly puts it

You cant keep up, is what I meant. And it is deliberate. Repeatedly changing which words are acceptable and which ones aren't, allows them to always represent themselves as victims of abuse (because using words that were fine yesterday are now 'abusive'), and keeps their followers on eggshells which makes them very compliant and unquestioning

The answer is no and never

Do you have a campaign going to replace sex-specific pronouns with neutral ones? Do you have a link to it?

There have been several. I don't have one personally. I will continue to rally the troupes!

Aah apologies Rat, I thought you were talking about pronouns usage on this website (as per thread header)

I was originally simply saying I couldn't understand any objection to using neutral pronouns (as per the subject of this thread). The fact that I think pronouns are generally a bit shit is tangental.

As per this thread; I'm pleased pronouns continue to be something MN acknowledge as being divisive. I hope as many posters as possible would consider going neutral as much as possible.

SuperDandy I agree! Poor MNHQ have a task on their hands.

"I have never read all that stuff in the DSM V before, thanks for posting. "

I don't know if anyone in the UK is AGP however. If I get time later, I will do an FOI to try to find out. My sense is that it is an irrelevance for the UK

Why, Gibberty? One sex using the customary pronouns of the other - that’s a fact rather than an ‘attitude’. Why does that make the compromise of ‘they’ offensive?

I am very far from being radical, embittered, deliberately nasty etc etc but I do not get this.

Thanks whoami
Dandy they will have staffed for this I'm sure!

Actually rat, I agree with you that they/them should be used more and he/she less (I will also use names and initials to avoid using any pronouns at all).

But already on this thread, in literally less than an hour (your suggestion of neutral as a compromise first mentioned at 14.50, told by gibb that neutral for only transgender people is offensive by 15.42), it has been shown that any concession that is less than full submission isn't seen as acceptable.

How completely feeble and transparent.

Don't be silly Pratchet, you and probably everyone here know full well I will have that discussion on another day on another thread.

Just to echo SuperDandy, thanks once again MNHQ.

I don't know if anyone in the UK is AGP however. If I get time later, I will do an FOI to try to find out. My sense is that it is an irrelevance for the UK

If a famous trans person tells stories about how much they enjoyed trying on their daughter's underwear, does that then invalidate them as trans?

I don't know if anyone in the UK is AGP however. If I get time later, I will do an FOI to try to find out. My sense is that it is an irrelevance for the UK

Lordy lord. Gibberty, the font of all reliable knowledge, whose every word enlightens us daily, pronounces that no-one is AGP in the UK.

By the way Rat, I hope your DD's ok now.

The objection is that 'they' is also misleading ie not functioning properly as a communication tool.

I will do an FOI to try to find out.

LOL!

I think I'll give mumsnet a rest for a while - I appreciate the tightrope MNHQ are trying to walk but it does change things. Reading & engaging on the feminism board has opened my mind but I'm not that committed yet as to put effort into pussyfoot around terminology.
All this energy & hot air that goes into trying to get people to believe that transwomen are actually female, sometimes the mind boggles.

Hey ho. I can see that MN posting is going to require reading a blooming House Style Guide daily, and I do enough getting that wrong in the day job.

(On the plus side, if I get banned for inadvertent random rule infringement, I'll have hours more working time free in the average week to read the work guidelines. Silver lining and all that.)