Mumsnet moderation of trans rights and gender critical issues

[JustineMumsnet]

Hi all,
We've given lots of thought to our moderation policies around trans rights and sex and gender issues and thought it would be a good idea to articulate where we stand in the form of a clear statement, so everyone can be clear about our moderation going forward. You can find it here. Hope it provides a helpful reference point. Thanks.

Couldn't we first establish if this side of the room have a valid objection to they/their before we go supposing that the other side might?

Well it's the "other side" who are being hurt by their "personal pronouns" not being respected.

And as part of the argument is that failure to use said pronouns is invalidating their gender identity then using a different pronoun is still going to cause the same issue.

So why do their passports and driving licences say female?

Amy Desir's driving licence says male. It took one request to the DVLA.

Im going to post as i read or i will forget so apologies if im repeating later posts

That all seems fine to me as i dont generally do those things but i would agree that there is a need to let posters know what they said to get deleted

Otherwise you could delete three posts in a row

Very pleasing to see clarification on TIM, cis and terf

Are you actually advocating that we cease to differentiate between men and women in all language?

Oh for the love of god, I am talking about PERSONAL PRONOUNS.

he/his/him she/her/hers - these do not need to exist. They do not help women. They/them/their are just fine and it's quite normal to use these when you do not know or do not want to disclose someone's sex/gender.

These are not the only means we have in language of communicating our biological sex!

Heavens, I'm feeling flushed after that. Apologies for the capps and bold combination.

How many people are approaching groups of men and telling them not to use he/she and his/her? And that they/their is the preferred way to communicate.

Because it would be interesting to get the reactions of these men.

Maybe try Pistonheads?

Please do report back.

if someone used gender neutral pronouns for all trans people but not other members that would obviously be offensive.

Even the compromise of ‘they’ is offensive now.

I didn’t see too much harm in using preferred pronouns or a term like ‘transwoman’ this morning.

I do now. I won’t be using them any more.

I’m not overhauling the entire English language because a tiny minority of people feel a general convention is personally having a go at them.

What about because it would be good for women and help in bringing down the patriarchy?

(Not that I agree it would be an "overhauling" but just for the sake of argument.)

I feel that I can hold my own in debate, I want the debate to happen. I don’t want anyone genuine excluded from this debate for using words like ‘cis’ or ‘TIM’ or for expressing an opinion. I don’t care if people offend me and I dont care what they call me as long as it’s not threatening. I don’t want women excluded from this board because they don’t feel upnto the linguistic gymnastics of avoiding deletion. We talked on the Maria mclachlan/Tania wolf conviction thread about the cognitive load inherent in constantly policing your language

This.

How many people are approaching groups of men and telling them not to use he/she and his/her? And that they/their is the preferred way to communicate.

There has been discussion around neutralising pronouns for yonks; long before the transgender debate hit the news.

I asked why it was offensive, given that it's a gesture of compromise.

The 'othering' occurs because these are people of one sex using pronouns of the other sex.

These are not the only means we have in language of communicating our biological sex!

When I'm talking about somebody, I can use a pronoun or say 'he's a bloke' every time I mention him. Of course language evolved so that we don't have to say 'he's a bloke' every time, we can just use a pronoun. It's how words work.

So do you have that word for adult human of the sex that produces motile gametes?

This is what we wear in Brighton - it makes life a lot easier!

www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-sussex-43336081

You cant keep up, is what I meant. And it is deliberate. Repeatedly changing which words are acceptable and which ones aren't, allows them to always represent themselves as victims of abuse (because using words that were fine yesterday are now 'abusive'), and keeps their followers on eggshells which makes them very compliant and unquestioning.

Thank fuck I don’t live in Brighton

When I'm talking about somebody, I can use a pronoun or say 'he's a bloke' every time I mention him.

Why would you need to mention it every time you're talking about them? If someone at work was telling me about a colleague's poor performance in a recent meeting I would find their motives deeply suspicious if they were forever reminding me that this colleague was female... Because, you know, what the fuck has that got to do with their performance in a meeting?

So do you have that word for adult human of the sex that produces motile gametes?

I'm not playing this game with you today Pratchet, fun though it is. I'm skiving work as it is without getting caught up in every little derail.

The more I discuss this with those who say transwomen are women, the less I feel we'll ever agree.

I need to sit on my hands in order not just to blurt 'Oh don't be so bloody daft' half the time.

Do you realise quite how much good will is being lost by all this rewriting and policing of language?

There's someone on twitter whose pronouns are fuck/fuckyou/fuckoff.

Rat, I've never heard of that.

Do you have a campaign going to replace sex-specific pronouns with neutral ones? Do you have a link to it?

P702-704 ‘Transvestic Disorder

Transvestic disorder occurs in heterosexual (or bisexual) adolescent and adult males (rarely in females) for whom cross-dressing behavior generates sexual excitement and causes distress and/or impairment without drawing their primary gender into question. It is occasionally accompanied by gender dysphoria. An individual with transvestic disorder who also has clinically significant gender dysphoria can be given both diagnoses. In many cases of late-onset gender dysphoria in gynephilic natal males, transvestic behavior with sexual excitement is a precursor .’

‘Associated Features Supporting Diagnosis Transvestic disorder in men is often accompanied by autogynephilia (i.e., a male’s paraphilic tendency to be sexually aroused by the thought or image of himself as a woman). Autogynephilic fantasies and behaviors may focus on the idea of exhibiting female physiological functions (e.g., lactation, menstruation), engaging in stereotypically feminine behavior (e.g., knitting), or possessing female anatomy (e.g., breasts).’

‘Specifiers

The presence of fetishism decreases the likelihood of gender dysphoria in men with transvestic disorder. The presence of autogynephilia increases the likelihood of gender dysphoria in men with transvestic disorder .’

I am glad this is being posted again. When I mentioned this yesterday Daimbars got a bit of a shock. I see today she wants it to be an unmentionable. Gibberty also disbelieved it was trans in the DSM until she posted the DSM with it in there!

The Netflix series Transparant is about an AGP man. It's a fictional character so that's safe to say if anyone is worried.
These are the people that worry me the most, we are expected to participate in their fetish. Anyway, off to listen to Shelia Jeffries talking about it tonight at the meeting in London.

It is essential that we let MPs etc know this is under the trans umbrella, that these are the people wanting to be given access to all females at all times.

Aah apologies Rat, I thought you were talking about pronouns usage on this website (as per thread header)

I didn't realise you were talking about abolishing feminine and masculine pronouns usage throughout the English language.

It would be an interesting debate on how language shapes thought, how languages which are strictly gendered work, and languages which have neuter or no gendered pronouns all impact on this issue.

However I think that would be a bit off topic to this thread.

Goodness me. Poor MNHQ.

They are asked to produce some more specific guidelines on what's ok and what's not in mn forums, and to improve the reporting/deletion/suspension/banning process.

They do all this, acknowledging difficulties and including changes requested from all sides of the discussion.

They give illustrative examples, and ask that mods are respected and that posters read and adhere to the guidelines.

Result so far.... a huge thread arguing the toss, with many posters being intermittently horrible to each other and to MNHQ, and that will probably be causing the mods all sorts of hassle because a whole lot of posts do one or more of the exact things they've just been asked not to.

"I asked why it was offensive, given that it's a gesture of compromise.

The 'othering' occurs because these are people of one sex using pronouns of the other sex."

With that attitude, personally I would see it as deliberate misgendering.

"There's someone on twitter whose pronouns are fuck/fuckyou/fuckoff".

Is it Miranda?

No, can't be. Banned for talking about science.