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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Mumsnet moderation of trans rights and gender critical issues

999 replies

JustineMumsnet · 13/06/2018 09:31

Hi all,
We've given lots of thought to our moderation policies around trans rights and sex and gender issues and thought it would be a good idea to articulate where we stand in the form of a clear statement, so everyone can be clear about our moderation going forward. You can find it here. Hope it provides a helpful reference point. Thanks.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
GibbertyFlibbert · 13/06/2018 14:08

"Transwomen are not women by any usual definition."

So why do their passports and driving licences say female?

Popchyk · 13/06/2018 14:08

Gibber, Miranda is a transsexual (male to female).

And has been very vocal on here about the fact that he is a man. And male.

How does this tally with your assertion that transwomen are not male? Do you think he is mistaken and we should refer to him as female because "trans women are not male"?

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 13/06/2018 14:09

OK...
To make my point...
I was using OLD - pinksofa to be precise.
A man contacted me and I refused to write back as I am a lesbian feminist who is not attracted to men.
The man called me manphobic.
I found this coercive and linked with rape culture. I would like to talk about this from a feminist perspective.

Contrasted with...

I was on pinksofa and a transwoman contacted me. I refused to write back as I am a lesbian feminist who is not attracted to transwomen.
The transwomen called me transphobic.
I found this coercive and linked with rape culture. I would like to talk about this from a feminist perspective.

And if transwoman is found to be unkind...

I was on pinksofa and a woman contacted me. I refused to write back as I am a lesbian feminist who is not attracted to women.
The women called me a bigot.
I found this coercive and linked with rape culture. I would like to talk about this from a feminist perspective.

Am I doing it wrong? I'm not trying to be funny. I'm genuinely not wanting to be banned.

dianebrewster · 13/06/2018 14:09

I have come to find the terms cis and terf offensive, but don't think being offended is the worse thing that can happen to a woman. I would prefer to keep the terms TIM and TIF as i think they are the most accurate way of talking about people who wish to "transition".

If we can't do that then I am happy to talk about transwomen and transmen in the same way I am happy to talk about seahorses. I do not believe the latter refers to an aquatic equine but it refers to a different kind of aquatic being with some of the visual characteristics of a horse. Everyone knows what I mean when I use any of these terms, which means I can communicate.

(I do not use the terms Sea horse, trans woman or trans man. This means something quite different, which is scientifically untrue. I am a scientist, I will not assert things that are scientific nonsense.)

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 13/06/2018 14:12

I would also like to be able to express myself as a proud lesbian feminist in the tradition of Audre Lorde who sees a profundity in connection between women that forms a huge part of what shapes my feminist outlook.

It seems important in the feminist section to be able to own and embrace your feminist perspective.

I don't know how to do that if female is assumed to mean feminine.

Femininity to me is something that obscures femaleness in favour of something that is defined by men, for their benefit

GibbertyFlibbert · 13/06/2018 14:12

I still don't know enough about Miranda to comment and I am not going to get sucked into talking about a real person without knowing his circumstances.

KataraJean · 13/06/2018 14:13

We believe in free speech and civil debate. So we will, for instance, allow people to discuss biology and scientific evidence

It is going to be hard, as a parenting website, to NOT allow people to discuss biology and scientific evidence. But the basic problem is terminology once you start to discuss biology, and that does not even have to be in a feminism/trans debate. As someone upthread said, you get into 1984 territory, if it is impossible to state basic biological facts on a parenting website.

Women are the ones who are pregnant, or miscarry, have a live birth or a stillbirth (men experience this as partners/fathers). Women are the ones who breastfeed (men experience this as partners/fathers).
Men produce sperm.

I am not conservative. I accept that children may have two mothers and two fathers or any kind of family set-up; I also don't think that being a mother or a father presupposes any specific parenting role. But the people who push children out of their uteruses (uteri?) are female; that is a biological fact. The people who have male reproductive organs are male. That is also a biological fact. These people are conventionally and historically known as women and men respectively.

A transperson, unless they are female-bodied, cannot grow a baby and breastfeed. A transperson who is male-bodied will father children, in the biological sense, by producing sperm.

If they are female-bodied, they would historically speaking, be amongst the group known as women. Even if a female-bodied person has a hysterectomy or cannot conceive she belongs to the group who would be normally able to conceive, if their reproductive organs were in place and functioning. She would be conventionally a woman.

So, already, when we look at what this website is about (bearing and raising children, for the most part, or trying to do this, or suffering infertility), men and women have had distinct biological roles. And while we may or may not wish to challenge what this means socially, we are not (yet) at the stage where men can give birth and women can produce sperm biologically speaking.

Where am I going with this? I have no idea.

I struggle with the idea that gender equals sex. Rape is a sex-based crime, not a gender-based one. The fact that more women are in poverty because they have children and are out of the workplace is sex and gender-based. It is sex-based because female-bodied people (women) give birth to children, and gender-based because of the social expectation that women will raise children. Identifying as male or female because of an idea in your head rather a sex (what is between your legs) is gender. But the idea of what is male or female comes from societal expectations, so gender goes round in a circle, really; it is discursive/constructed internally or externally and not material reality (sex).

So, to discuss biology and the material reality of being a parent, we need to be able to discuss sex, and understand what sex means.

Thus, a transwoman does not have the reproductive organs, functioning or otherwise, to gestate and deliver children, even if they identify as a woman; and a transman does not have the reproductive organs, functioning or otherwise, to produce sperm, even if they identify as a man. These are incontrovertible biological facts.

So far so good. But then, I think we hit a wall. We need to stop because we cannot say why transwomen do not have the ability to gestate, deliver and breastfeed children. Or more specifically, we cannot use language which would make that clear.

Theinconstantgardener · 13/06/2018 14:14

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ for repeating a deleted post. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

KataraJean · 13/06/2018 14:16

the idea of what is male or female - here, I mean when one identifies as this, rather than is this.

BeyondSceptical · 13/06/2018 14:16

Well my passport says British citizen - another social construct that isn't emperically verifiable, so

GibbertyFlibbert · 13/06/2018 14:17

@Theinconstantgardener - I have already reported the post you quoted for misgendering named individuals who aren't even here to defend themselves

Pratchet · 13/06/2018 14:18

So why do their passports and driving licences say female?

Because the law was changed to allow males to have 'female' on their documents? This is not a mystery

Bowlofbabelfish · 13/06/2018 14:19

Theinconstantgardener - I have already reported the post you quoted for misgendering named individuals who aren't even here to defend themselves

And that @MNHQ is, in a nutshell, why this is going to be abused. Three of them and someone is banned.

Or would that count as malicious reporting?

daimbars · 13/06/2018 14:19

Does AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth win the thread for breaking pretty much every single one of the new guidelines multiple times when responding to @JustineMumsnet

We don’t allow posts which are derogatory or aggressive towards trans people. We believe there are ways to express both opinion and facts without crossing this line.

Progressive as fuck.

Saying we can't call males males.

Free speech by definition applies to all; for a debate to take place, opposing views which follow our Talk guidelines need to be tolerated, even if you disagree with them.

You have just been caught out, once again, talking the pish you spout on a daily basis.

None cares what you think though Gibb

Go away and stop boring me with your tedious posts

Sweeping negative generalisations about any group, including trans people and gender-critical feminists, won’t be tolerated.

None denies the existence of transpeople.

How could we? Look there they are, all over twitter, telling women how to behave

Trans ideology is the New World Religion.

Any deviation from the Trans-dogma is Heresy, for which you WILL be punished

Pratchet · 13/06/2018 14:19

Also agree with that quote that constant posted

GirlInTheDirtyShirt · 13/06/2018 14:19

I think it's particularly sad that the expression ‘Trans-Identified Male’ or ‘TIM’ (a factual description) will be censored, but I understand that MN is being backed into a corner here, and that concessions have to be given in order to keep this space for debate. Which is fucking disgraceful really, but it is what it is, I suppose.

Bowlofbabelfish · 13/06/2018 14:21

So why do their passports and driving licences say female?

One of the women I did my PhD with had an error in her licence when they switched to the photo cards and she reapplied as ‘dr.’ - she was listed as male.

Took absolutely ages to sort out. She remained female through the entire kerfuffle though because humans can’t change sex.

ScarletBegonias · 13/06/2018 14:21

Would it be acceptable - for all concerned - to use the formulation 'X was born male' rather than 'X is Male'?

MipMipMip · 13/06/2018 14:21

Do you think the OP (@MNHQ!) will be coming back?

JuzzaL · 13/06/2018 14:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TheUterati · 13/06/2018 14:26

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Elletorro · 13/06/2018 14:26

I’m beginning to think mumsnet should be getting some legal advice.

Guidelines like these are v likely to be discriminatory particularly against autistic feminists.

Mumsnet you need to be thinking about:

  1. Gender critical feminism as a protected characteristic
  1. Disability discrimination
TheUterati · 13/06/2018 14:29

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

TheUterati · 13/06/2018 14:30

Making it easy for those who want to come at me:

Post Number 3:

The correct and accurate pronouns to refer to all 'transwomen' are 'he', 'him' and 'his'. The demands of these people should not be allowed to force us into a lie. This is gaslighting and coercive control.

daimbars · 13/06/2018 14:34

I am reluctant to report posts but curious how AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth has managed made 6 posts on this very thread that all break the rules?! (Sorry to repeat myself - bold failed before)

We don’t allow posts which are derogatory or aggressive towards trans people. We believe there are ways to express both opinion and facts without crossing this line.

Progressive as fuck.

Saying we can't call males males.

Free speech by definition applies to all; for a debate to take place, opposing views which follow our Talk guidelines need to be tolerated, even if you disagree with them.

You have just been caught out, once again, talking the pish you spout on a daily basis.

None cares what you think though Gibb

Go away and stop boring me with your tedious posts

Sweeping negative generalisations about any group, including trans people and gender-critical feminists, won’t be tolerated.

None denies the existence of transpeople.

How could we? Look there they are, all over twitter, telling women how to behave

Trans ideology is the New World Religion.

Any deviation from the Trans-dogma is Heresy, for which you WILL be punished

Swipe left for the next trending thread