New sub-section please?

[RatRolyPoly]

Hello MNHQ, may I gently put forward the idea of a new Libfem sub-section please? I don't know if the idea has been floated before so I'm not sure what appetite there would be for it, if any at all, but in the interests of feminism being accessible to all women and for the benefit of all women I'd like to raise my hand in favour.

By "all women" I primarily mean women such as myself, who would appreciate a section on Mumsnet to discuss feminist and women's issues without what is serving to all intents and purposes as "entry criteria" on the existing board; that being the obligation to deny the legally recognised genders of a group of individuals - contrary to the Gender Recognition Act 2004.

This situation, I believe, has become the case due to prevalence of a certain brand of feminism having become overrepresented on this board, but serves the purpose of excluding and silencing the valid views of many women and feminists.

I'm not attempting in any way to discredit or silence the position of this current majority, merely to suggest that a specific board is needed to enable the voices of liberal feminists to be heard; not least by each other, in order to discuss the ongoing struggles faced by women in today's society.

Cheers.

It really is quite something to read over the old threads where dittany started one about the politics of dungarees (without having to label it lighthearted), sgb started one about chick lit etc without everything coming back to one issue.

FWIW this is some first rate derailing folks - bravo!

Let me reiterate, I am requesting a Liberal Feminists subsection, not to detract from or compete with the existing broad-based Feminists section; not as a location for threads which I somehow feel "could not exist" on the existing board; not as an echo-chamber for my own personal views or the views of any other group; not to label the users of the existing board; not in order to exclude those not identifying as liberal feminists; and not because TRANS.

I would like this because I feel some MN users would appreciate a way to raise topics and discussions in the context of liberal - as opposed to broad-based or any other - feminism.

Would a trans embargo area work then, rat?

I don't know, but if someone proposed one I'd certainly consider it :)

I would like this because I feel some MN users would appreciate a way to raise topics and discussions in the context of liberal - as opposed to broad-based or any other - feminism.

Right but how would this work in practise?

MN said this is the board for discussing Feminism and WR. And guess what - all MN boards are open! If someone says porn and prostitution isn't damaging to women I'll be on that thread arguing they're wrong even if it's in the fecking Camping section.

And this is absolutely right and appropriate, and wouldn't change were there a separate subsection. But on a subsection someone could specifically target a question - about porn for example - to liberal feminists; because as it stands (yes, with the trans debate so widely discussed on the main board most likely being one of the reasons) you're not all that likely to stumble across more than a hadful of liberal feminists on the general board right now.

My objections to a liberal feminist section would be 1)lib fem is currently used more as an insult than a description of a branch of feminism 2) there isn't a consistent and agreed-upon definition of liberal feminism used here on MN so if someone from a different board happened upon it, it might be confusing when it wasn't what was expected.

I think there are eg liberal feminists who are pro-porn and those who are anti-porn

For my part I'm not trying to derail but tend to go a bit off-piste on most threads

"Liberal feminism I believe is typically the ethos of practical feminism, empowerment and individual choice. Under those banners the issue of trans is less imperative than under the general banner of feminism'" - that makes no sense.

Trans issues are directly affecting empowerment and individual choice. If a 15 year old asks for a female doctor to examine them for an intimate exam or a rape assessment, and has to accept a man who says he's a woman that's not giving them "individual choice". If a women's sporting event is won by a man that's that's pretty disempowering.

Under those banners, trans is the most important issue at the moment because women aren't being allowed to discuss it and therefore can't fight it.

Have you tried starting a LibFem discussio thread in chat? Like the ongoing Bluestocking / pub chat thread, but for LibFem discussion?

There's no real reason why it couldn't work in the same way that there are the Brexiteer Arms threads and anti-Brexit threads both sitting under the EU referendum topic, but posters tend to keep to the one that best reflects their views. They are general, chewing the cud type threads rather than considering particular issues or topical concerns

SuperLoud "Tory" and "Corbynite" are frequently used as slurs as well, but I don't think most people would allow the word they use to describe themselves to be dictated to them by those whose views differ.

There may not be an agreed-upon definition, but I don't see that posing to great a problem if I'm honest. No single forum heading is completely definitive; everything is nuanced; and I don't think anyone's likely to suffer too great a trauma if the LibFem section fails to meet their expectations. But I'm prepared to be convinced?

The thing is though, if you are able to argue your point of view coherently, then of course there is a place for you in Feminism Chat. And Yes, it's overrun with trans stuff at the moment but that's because that particular agenda is perceived to be a threat to women's rights right now.

If you disagree with what is being discussed there then of course you can come on there and argue your point of view. If people counter argue and you don't have anything to come back with, then, we'll... That's what debate is about isn't it?

I have been on a lot of trans threads recently and you could say it has become an echo chamber. But it's not because people often come on there with their accusations of 'transphobia' etc but are never able to actually back up those accusations or debate the points.

OlennasWimple do you think it would be welcomed in a place like Chat, or would it not invite the question "why isn't this in feminism?". And the reason it may suffer in feminism is that it may be seen as either an invitation to challenge liberal feminism or an attempt to espouse it!

Whilst I otherwise think that's a great idea (and plan to do it, regardless of whether or not a new subsection results) for me it would not serve the purpose of being able to contextualise discussion around the many, may feminist subjects that present themselves every day.

I was only teasing about derailing SuperLoud

“you're not all that likely to stumble across more than a hadful of liberal feminists on the general board right now.”

I really question that. Any thread about porn, for example, or prostration is dominated by liberal feminist views..

And the comparison to the vegan board doesn't work - the vegan board is there so that if you post in there you are more likely to get answers from people who are actually vegan/interested in veganism so will have the expertise to help and advise. Otherwise if you posted in Chat, you might get a couple of replies and then it would fall off the page forever. It's also a good place to refer back to.

As far as I can see it's not meant as somewhere where veganism can never be debated, indeed last week there was a fairly heated thread on there.

It sounds like you just want an echo chamber. If you believe in empowerment, choice, etc for women, then why can you put your arguments across in Feminism Chat? I've learnt absolutely tonnes from there from actually taking on board others views.

“you're not all that likely to stumble across more than a hadful of liberal feminists on the general board right now.”

There are no posts about porn on the first page of discussion topics in Feminism Chat.

There are no posts about porn on the second.

There is one post about porn of the third page. It has 25 contributions.

There are no posts about porn on the fourth page.

There is one post about porn on the fifth page. It has 14 responses.

I'm not sure we can use the responses of some posters to porn threads as evidence of a representative number of liberal feminists on the current Feminism boards.

Rat - sorry, my suggestion wasn't clear. I was thinking in my head "Feminism Chat" but only typed "Chat"

^I really question that. Any thread about porn, for example, or prostration is dominated by liberal feminist views..^

I meant to preface that last post with this quote, rather than my own.

Is the answer to make a Trans board then? So then those issues can be discussed there, but things like porn and prostitution can be discussed in Feminism Chat but without the Liberal Feminist label?

And the comparison to the vegan board doesn't work - the vegan board is there so that if you post in there you are more likely to get answers from people who are actually vegan/interested in veganism so will have the expertise to help and advise.

No analogy is perfect, but actually it does work with what you're saying. People interested in Liberal Feminism specifically could go to such a subsection to seek information/answers/views from people who see themselves as Liberal Feminists; they will have knowledge of and access to the reseach, the groups and the events. As with the vegan thread undoubtedly there would be occasional robust discussions as to the validity of a liberal approach.

Whilst the analogy may fall down in other places, I don't think it falls down here.

Is the answer to make a Trans board then? So then those issues can be discussed there, but things like porn and prostitution can be discussed in Feminism Chat but without the Liberal Feminist label?

As Pencils said it's not really okay to set up a subsection "for" a group of people which is established and mostly dedicated to talking "about" them.

Why must things be discussed without the Liberal Feminist label if one wants to discuss them in the context of liberal feminism?

I really wanted to link a video but it's no longer hosted. It shows a chart of different kinds of feminism by a woman named Amanda Sebeysten.
This gives an idea of some of her work.
discoversociety.org/2016/03/01/focus-the-difference-between-feminism-and-womens-liberation/
The transcript is here www.bl.uk/learning/histcitizen/sisterhood/view.html#id=143453&id2=143310 but it's a shame you can't see the video.

I remember her saying in another context that there were women within radical feminism who included trans males in their theorising.

I think it's important not to divide feminism up on this one issue because it's never going to be that simple.

I'm trying to work out why I'm so prickly about it - partly that I hate 'lib fem' being used as an insult and work with liberal feminists very often, who are genuinely passionate about making things better for women.

Partly I'm a radical feminist, more or less, and I don't want a whole branch of feminist theory reduced to women on the internet saying penis is male. Everyone knows that, tbqf.

I do not think a libfem section will give the OP what they want.

Agree with Olenna. Surely just starting an ongoing thread in Feminist Chat with the heading "Discussing issues from a Lib Fem perspective" or similar would suffice?

I tend to think that splitting boards into smaller boards stifles discussion and does indeed lead to the echo chamber problem.

I'm trying to work out why I'm so prickly about it

May I be bold and suggest that perhaps it is because when one is in the "dominant" category it is natural to want to "not see" the problem? I really don't mean to cause offence with that, I just wanted to offer it for consideration.

Imagine a community with a small significant immigrant community. They struggle to access services, their needs are not met because they are not aligned to the needs of the majority, they have no facilities expressly dedicated to their situation as immigrants and they are failing to thrive in comparison to the non-immigrant community members.

Now imagine the non-immigrant majority saying "you can't segregate us along the lines of immigrant and non-immigrant; we are one community! We should consider ourselves as such, we should have the same facilities, we should get the same support, we should be moving forward together, there is no difference between us."

I mean it sounds very noble, and undoubtedly it comes with no ill will, but it does not see the problem, because to see the problem you'd have to realise that you are the one who has it easy under the current system. And no-one likes to think that that is them. So if the immigrants are saying "we need help and support specific to us as immigrants, you have to consider how helpful it is for a non-immigrant to say "don't call yourself that - we're both the same!".