New sub-section please?

[RatRolyPoly]

Hello MNHQ, may I gently put forward the idea of a new Libfem sub-section please? I don't know if the idea has been floated before so I'm not sure what appetite there would be for it, if any at all, but in the interests of feminism being accessible to all women and for the benefit of all women I'd like to raise my hand in favour.

By "all women" I primarily mean women such as myself, who would appreciate a section on Mumsnet to discuss feminist and women's issues without what is serving to all intents and purposes as "entry criteria" on the existing board; that being the obligation to deny the legally recognised genders of a group of individuals - contrary to the Gender Recognition Act 2004.

This situation, I believe, has become the case due to prevalence of a certain brand of feminism having become overrepresented on this board, but serves the purpose of excluding and silencing the valid views of many women and feminists.

I'm not attempting in any way to discredit or silence the position of this current majority, merely to suggest that a specific board is needed to enable the voices of liberal feminists to be heard; not least by each other, in order to discuss the ongoing struggles faced by women in today's society.

Cheers.

“But if you lot can take your faux feminism somewhere else, I'd support that”

This? Not quite the wording you used!

Haha, no, obviously my my mind translated the memory into the words I would have used! I didn't realise I'd sexed it up quite that much though, so for that I am sorry

My point still stands.

As Pencils said it's not really okay to set up a subsection "for" a group of people which is established and mostly dedicated to talking "about" them.

Yes, point take, you are right, that wouldn't be on.

I have to say I'm not all that well versed in the differences between radical feminism and Liberal feminism.

But if say, there was a Liberal Feminism board, or even just thread and people were posting on there to say that women should be free to make the choice to be strippers, prostitutes, work in porn, I might come along and put across my argument as to why I don't agree. Would that be acceptable? Obviously I would read people's views on it and why they have a different opinion to me, but I would probably disagree. Or would it only be a place to all agree x, y, Liberal feminism.

Same with trans issues. You could start a thread in feminism where you coherently put across your arguments for trans women being actual women. However, you would need to back it up with proper arguments and stick around to argue your opinion when it is inevitably countered. I think sometimes people are a bit wary in Feminism Chat because there tends to be a lot of plopping, especially on the trans issue.

If you disagree with what is being discussed there then of course you can come on there and argue your point of view. If people counter argue and you don't have anything to come back with, then, we'll... That's what debate is about isn't it?

YY. That's it. No one is stopping you discussing your ideas. You have. You can't expect that people will agree with you about them.

“Haha, no, obviously my my mind translated the memory into the words I would have used! I didn't realise I'd sexed it up quite that much though, so for that I am sorry”

Yep. I get the feeling that happens quite a lot to things feminists say..

I mean it sounds very noble, and undoubtedly it comes with no ill will, but it does not see the problem, because to see the problem you'd have to realise that you are the one who has it easy under the current system.

Come off it Rat. You have the entire rest of the internet where your views dominate and debate is actually suppressed.

That's the thing. Generally radical feminist discourse is derailed or censored. It isn't here. Which is quite nice.

This is a good idea. I much prefer it to the constant demands for a 'trans' section. As this request is actually about people who do want to discuss certain things in their own little group. Where the demands to shift anything transrelated off the main forums are just people throwing a strop over seeing topics they disagree with..when they could easily just..not open the trans threads. The requests for a trans section are basically just wanting to shift all public awareness (growing by the day) off into its own shadowy corner.

But if libfems want a section where they can discuss their pro-prostitution, pro-trans or whatever views I can completely understand why they feel unable to discuss matters such as this on the main feminism board. It must feel a bit daunting trying to discuss things whilst in a minority opinion as I have seen a lot of people feel 'jumped on' when a few people disagree with them.

I would stay away from a libfem section personally, as a radfem. But it may stop some of the infighting and bickering and 'you are all trans/whorephobic' stuff, so is surely a good thing.

I think it could be added into the same subfgorum part as the likes of 'feminist theory'. So obviously all feminist views are discussed in the main FWR part, but anyone wishing to discuss only libfem stuff..who cannot handle opposing opinions, would go to their own section.

But if say, there was a Liberal Feminism board, or even just thread and people were posting on there to say that women should be free to make the choice to be strippers, prostitutes, work in porn, I might come along and put across my argument as to why I don't agree. Would that be acceptable?

This. If the section was created would dissent be allowed?

As it's currently allowed in the main feminism board.

Unfortunately a separate board won’t stop it being gate crashed” by those who believe in the “entry level requirements” you mention.

But also this I guess. You cannot stop people from posting in a certain place (as the poster who laughingly tried the 'only post here if you agree with me' stuff in FWR the other day ) but I do think most radfems would pretty much ignore a forum filled with 'sex work is great because' and 'sex is not a real thing'. I find if difficult to understand how anyone plans to fight sexism though, without acknowledging that women are disadvantaged due to their sex mind. I may lurk to see if that question is ever answered.

I’ve just read the legislation - the 2004 GRA. It strikes me that most of the discussion on the feminism boards does not disagree with people’s rights under the GRA: the focus of debate is self-ID. OP, please could you clarify? Personally, I don’t like anyone’s view being shouted down or no-platformed, and if liberal feminism needs to be treated as a different thing then I think that could be a good idea. But I’m not a feminism expert and I’m trying to decipher what it is that would be on lib fem and what on the other boards.

But if say, there was a Liberal Feminism board, or even just thread and people were posting on there to say that women should be free to make the choice to be strippers, prostitutes, work in porn, I might come along and put across my argument as to why I don't agree. Would that be acceptable? Obviously I would read people's views on it and why they have a different opinion to me, but I would probably disagree. Or would it only be a place to all agree x, y, Liberal feminism.

Yes, by god it would be acceptable, abso-bloody-lutely! Plus it's Mumsnet; the hound that won't be leashed; who could stop it?

With a subforum, if there's a thread on, say, legalising prostitution (Note: there is no single libfem view on the subject); whilst there may be however many posters saying "never, no way, terrible thing to do" and however many posters saying "yeah actually, I think that makes things safer for everyone", you won't get five pages of people saying "anyone who thinks this is a good idea is no feminist" and stifling debate on the actual topic. Because, you know, the very fact of a Libfem section kind of legitimises the idea that you can indeed still be a feminist but not subscribe to every or any one "feminist" point of view!

On trans issues, I suspect one would have to do a lot more than you've described, but that's for another day. Most of all I think you'd have to be almost foolhardily resilient, and that should not dictate whether or not someone gets to engage with feminism on the topic.

Come off it Rat. You have the entire rest of the internet where your views dominate and debate is actually suppressed.

...but I don't want to be put out to the rest of the internet

That's the thing. Generally radical feminist discourse is derailed or censored. It isn't here. Which is quite nice

I agree, this is absolutely a good thing! It's just been so enthusiastically received that I think change needs to happen to prevent disenfranchising a load of women.

This. If the section was created would dissent be allowed?

Yes yes yes yes yes!!!

Also YY to libfems can be gender critical. There seems to be a very odd view that only radical feminists can possibly have an issue with gender, where I would argue that near all feminists actually think gender is oppressive nonsense thats a social construct and that sex is actually important in some areas of life. So..in this libfem section would gender critical libfems be told they were not allowed to discuss trans issues? As lets be honest, thats the real reason for this request.

Sorry I keep posting before reading the whole thread. I need to train myself out of this habit.

I still stand by my original post in here though, requesting a libfem section is very different to requesting all trans threads to be shifted away. But thinking a little more about it, I don't really see how it would work as who exactly would decide if its a 'liberal feminism' thread/opinion or not?

Bertrand do you everconcede a point?

Hi Onthelist, I think I've addressed all the points in your recent post in earlier replies but please do let me know if there's something specific you think I've missed.

No, not at all, just somewhere to ask questions in the context of liberal feminism. I'll use the vegan example again if I may; not all vegans think honey is "exploitative" and not all of them think wool is unacceptable, but they can still all benefit from a place to discuss things specific to their being vegan, or indeed to debate the above, just as non-vegans can; non-vegan input is certainly valuable in such debates, but you'd still put that in the vegan section, right?

OK your analogies are not making much sense to me, not sure if its just me (have just taken my morphine so it might well be me)

Could you give an example of an actual topic that would be OK in a new libfem section in your eyes. A post that would be acceptable inside that topic. A post that would not be acceptable. And finally a topic that would be offlimits?

This should be easy enough to do, as you have clearly thought this through a bit.

I'm not sure I like the term 'Liberal Feminist'. It makes is sound like anyone who isn't one is against women's choice.

They are not, they just believe that choices aren't made in a vacuum and that many women do something for other reasons than completely free will.

Also, I thought 'feminism' was about equality for women. If women are taking sex work roles that men aren't then that isn't equality is it?

I guess these are issues for the potential new board Maybe things have got bogged down with trans issues (for legitimate reasons).

I think I've addressed all the points in your recent post in earlier replies but please do let me know if there's something specific you think I've missed.

OK sorry, going to go back over every single post thoroughly now, as the analogies are not making any sense to me and tbh, I am not understanding what you actually mean because of the analogies Will try and read through again. But there should be no need for analogies surely, if you have this in mind, then you should be able to say what you think would be acceptable, and unacceptable in this hypothetical libfem section. I think it would probably turn out, that a lot of people have crossover as views, so a few people who are libfem would disagree with your list. But maybe not

Sorry OntheList, that's definitely on my list of failings. Never been one to use 10 words when 4,372 will do! And I do love to tell a story... I did however just give an example that wasn't an example

I will past it here for ease:

2With a subforum, if there's a thread on, say, legalising prostitution (Note: there is no single libfem view on the subject); whilst there may be however many posters saying "never, no way, terrible thing to do" and however many posters saying "yeah actually, I think that makes things safer for everyone", you won't get five pages of people saying "anyone who thinks this is a good idea is no feminist" and stifling debate on the actual topic. Because, you know, the very fact of a Libfem section kind of legitimises the idea that you can indeed still be a feminist but not subscribe to every or any one "feminist" point of view!"

Wasn't an ANALOGY I mean!

They are not, they just believe that choices aren't made in a vacuum and that many women do something for other reasons than completely free will.

I think this and I'm a liberal feminist, it would seem.

It strikes me that most of the discussion on the feminism boards does not disagree with people’s rights under the GRA: the focus of debate is self-ID. OP, please could you clarify?

Hi Cheese, that was included in my original post as a topical and common (in my experience) example of this kind of "declarations" women seem to be obliged to make about the nature of their feminism in order to welcome on the general feminism board. I can see how on the back of so many trans threads it could have come across as a statement of opinion, but it was more just to reflect the number of posters whose integrity as feminists have been questioned on the current boards and so whose voices have been discouraged or even silenced.

Were a liberal space available, whilst all participants may debate whether or not each others' views are "good for women", the liberal nature of the group will I hope encourage posters with diverse opinions to still feel valued as feminists.

rat you know the reason there are few threads about porn/prostitution is because they get infested with a particular kind of man, right? I think most of us have very limited tolerance for dealing with it. I've had some of the charmers PM me.
You can try a "why prostitution should be legalised" but it won't be fun

Fair enough - if it opens debate rather than closes it down, I’m in favour of another board then, OP.

but I don't want to be put out to the rest of the internet

That wasn't the point, it was your "check your radfem privilege, my liberal pro trans views are not respected and it's hard for you to see that you have it easy" that I was responding to. It's a bit of a silly thing to say when as I say, your views pretty much go uncriticised everywhere else and radical feminists do not in any way "have it easy".