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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Mumsnet moderation policy

543 replies

JustineMumsnet · 11/11/2016 15:59

If you've visited Site Stuff in recent times you'll know there's been a fair bit of grousing about our moderation policy. There have been lot of calls from the SN boards in particular but elsewhere too for us to delete many more posts than we are doing at the moment. Equally some on the feminism boards have been particularly angered by the position we've adopted around transphobia.

Those of you who have been around for a bit will also know that some of these debates have been going on a long time.

Mumsnet has always believed - been founded upon - the idea that civilised debate is a broadly positive thing. That we can disagree but agree that people have a right to different opinions. That freedom of speech is in general good and that we'd rather let the conversation flow than censor it. That exposing ourselves to the widest range of arguments and opinions is generally healthier than banishing the ones we don’t like.

Increasingly you'll find that other places on the web will filter out views and information you might not like automatically - Facebook and Google both do this based on the data they have about you (which is a lot). Just take a look at the debate raging in the US right now over whether this kind of tailoring of news – some call it the “filter bubble” effect – was to blame for the election of Donald Trump. Whatever you think of Facebook’s role in sending Trump to the White House, it’s unarguably becoming increasingly hard to watch or read something that hasn't been selected for you.

We've chosen to be public, un-paywalled and welcoming to newbies with different opinions. That means from time to time we may be confronted by views that we think are outlandish and even noxious. Of course - given we're called Mumsnet - we're always going to be a space dominated by women but the only qualification we require of our users is a basic level of civility.

This doesn't mean that it's a complete free for all. Of course we do and will continue to remove posts that break our rules – for instance personal attacks and those that break the law or promote hate. But there are always going to be posts which fall into a grey area - posts that cause offence without intention, perhaps by using words in common use that some believe should be disallowed like “moron” or “idiot”. And our inclination here is to err on the side of free speech rather than censorship.

Many Mumsnetters have told us they've had their minds broadened by posts they've seen on Mumsnet and have become more tolerant and understanding as a result. We do understand it can be frustrating being told that we'd rather host a debate about why something was offensive so folks might change their mind, than delete it. We're mindful of the fact that many of our users are exhausted and often in impossibly difficult situations and would much rather people just understood or piped down - that we just deleted those comments which upset them or banned those who made them. But rightly or wrongly, that's not the Mumsnet we've chosen to be. We've chosen to be open and welcoming to new people and challenging different opinions. We've chosen to be a broad church not a narrow one.

At a time when the rise of intersectional politics often seems to be squeezing the space for public debate, when no-platforming has entered the everyday vocabulary of university campuses and social media reverberates daily to howls of outrage over some linguistic transgression or other, this seems more important than ever.

No-one is pretending that any of this stuff is easy. Rights only really mean anything when they are difficult to protect. And in the case of many of these arguments, we have deep instinctive sympathy with users calling for us to delete posts or ban certain words. We understand how anxious many who’ve battled for women’s rights feel. We understand that language plays an important part in making them feel marginalised and vulnerable. And many of us who have for years read the stirring and humbling posts on the SN boards will instinctively wish to defend parents who feel the casual, thoughtless language used by other posters is making their already hard lives harder still. We would go to the barricades with them in many ways, but not at the expense of a principle which makes Mumsnet what it is.

I think all this is worth stating because, frankly, the aggressive attitude of some Mumsnetters towards the community team in particular needs to stop. It's becoming demoralising and almost impossible to do the job. You couldn't actually hope to meet a nicer, more patient, diligent and selfless crew than the MN community team. Day in day out they do their level best to be fair, decent and consistent. Of course we get things wrong and don't always word things right - who doesn't? - and I know the majority of users know this and I'm really grateful for your support and kind words. The one thing I'm certain of, though, is that decent moderation is a big reason why Mumsnet has thrived and grown over the years.

But there are some users who, from what I've seen, are relentlessly denigrating the team in a way that can really only be described as aggressive heckling. Some of the attacks have been personal and downright nasty. In recent weeks members of the community team have been called ignorant, stupid, rude and not giving a shiny shite. The disabled members of our team have been described as tokens. I personally have been called sneering, supercilious, classist, venal and a hypocrite who’s drowning in the Kool-Aid amongst other things. (Let’s not get into a debate over whether that’s fair…)

The last thing we're saying is that we don't want feedback - we value it hugely, and we will always hold up our hands if we've messed up. (Incidentally almost none of the above critical posts have been deleted.) But, to be frank, if Mumsnet makes you that angry then maybe it's time to accept that it isn't the site for you - you probably need to acknowledge that we simply aren't and never will moderate the way you want us to. After all, we're here to make parents' lives easier and if the way we moderate raising your blood pressure on a daily basis - so much that you're calling the moderators “cunts” - then with the greatest respect I think you need to take a break.

In an increasingly polarised world of trigger warnings and safe spaces, preserving Mumsnet as a place that can host the widest debate in the most civilised fashion seems more important than ever. You’ll have to forgive me if this sounds pompous but this really is about freedom. As so often George Orwell put it best: “If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”

OP posts:
SoHairyAndForeverSpartacus · 12/11/2016 13:50

Nope, I wouldn't like that either Tiggy.
But he's not a woman, so I said the word man. Duh!

OlennasWimple · 12/11/2016 13:51

You and me both SoHairy!

Chariot - I'd be interested in the thread you describe - go ahead and post it Smile

QueenMortificado · 12/11/2016 13:52

I think you're reading in to it a bit much there, I didn't read it like that at all. In my opinion obviously.

I think maybe the point is that those who shout the loudest about certain things don't necessarily represent the majority view. Lots of posters don't want to join the debate as it is very robust and intimidating in places. Just because a thread has lots of agreement about a certain view doesn't mean that's representative of the whole of MN.

OlennasWimple · 12/11/2016 13:59

I agree that there may well be a silent majority on pretty much any issue on MN, whether it's trans, parking wars, WOHM / SAHM, ff / bf, batshit crazy MILs.... But how are we to know? Perhaps MNHQ receive emails from posters saying that they don't agree with the prevailing views, but a) I doubt it and b) these aren't available to regular MNers.

In any case, does it matter? And I'm not entirely sure what direct relevance it has to the issue of talk guidelines and site moderation

VincentVL · 12/11/2016 14:00

VoyageOfDad personally attacked me and made more vague attacks at other posters on the feminist threads. I couod have reported him but unlike some others I dont feel like running to mum(snet) to get stuff censored every time it mildly irritates me is particularly helpful.

QueenMortificado · 12/11/2016 14:02

Yeah I think it does matter. If people are too intimidated to post because they will get shouted down by the most vocal posters for expressing the "wrong" opinion then the opinion of the thread as a whole takes on a significant bias

More generally, the FWR boards can sometimes be like that with it seemingly be that if one doesn't have the strongest of feminist opinions then they're "not welcome".

It would be nice if the aggression in certain threads could be taken down a notch and healthy, respectful debate occur. That means being respectful of MNHQ's final decisions on things too and dropping down the demands.

OurBlanche · 12/11/2016 14:02

He said he read your 'mock' post as being misleading... the reason you yourself gave for asking for it to be deleted!

And he repeated what Justine and others here have said.

I am still not seeing why you felt the need to shout "MAN" instead of just continuing to exchange posts!

DeviTheGaelet · 12/11/2016 14:02

chariot I too would be interested in a trans-affirming feminist theory thread

OurBlanche · 12/11/2016 14:05

When you have it all worked out, could you post it, in words of one syllable or less. As I suspected, my 70s sensibilities are reeling with the internal inconsistencies of the whole trans debate Smile Confused

PortiaCastis · 12/11/2016 14:05

Well said Queen sometimes I'm to scared to post anything as I'm not good at articulation and once got so upset at being attacked on a thread I ended up in tears.
Having said that I've received some very good advice from others so I stay on this site for that reason

DeviTheGaelet · 12/11/2016 14:05

MN is a community, posters run into each other and know each others views. It isn't as simple as it may appear on here.
I get really annoyed with FWR being portrayed as a nasty board as the regulars on there are lovely and supportive. But there are a number of anti-feminists on here who like to do us down. It's really frustrating.

venusinscorpio · 12/11/2016 14:08

I think that's unfair, QueenMortificado. Normally what happens is someone comes into a thread, shouts "what a load of transphobic bigots" and then hides the thread. They don't even try to engage in polite and respectful debate. That goes two ways, right? Don't expect people to be patient and polite with people who insult them and don't engage in reasoned argument.

VoyageOfDad · 12/11/2016 14:08

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

venusinscorpio · 12/11/2016 14:09

And it's not just FWR where your views may get attacked, is it?

QueenMortificado · 12/11/2016 14:11

See Venus this is what I mean - polite and reasoned debate on both sides. I agree with you.

But some posters who don't have the strongest views on feminism but are interested / want to learn more / put their opinion across but are NOT goady fuckers sometimes get pulled in to that bracket and shouted down too. And that does put some posters off engaging in the boards.

venusinscorpio · 12/11/2016 14:11

You are deliberately misrepresenting what happened to be goady. Just ignore him, Vincent.

VincentVL · 12/11/2016 14:12

OurBlanche - I have no extra time in my day to give to men who a) give me the impression they have a particular type of problem with women who disagree with them, b) appear to be claiming some sort of authority that enables them to tell women to shut up and feck off, c) spark my trollometer.

Ill give women more time than that because I want to. I dont care if people think thats a heinous double standard, its my choice who I bother to engage with.

OurBlanche · 12/11/2016 14:13

To be scrupulously fair Devi there are also some very strident voices who brook no interruption and can come down hard on posters who don't immediately toe the given line.

Many posters say, repeatedly, that they have been shouted down, made to feel small, by regular FWR posters. It is a claim that cannot be ignored, even if you disagree with it.

The board is strident, that's the point of it. But it is also, often, inflexible, idiomatic and unforgiving to posters who don't understand that idiom!

YonicProbe · 12/11/2016 14:14

"I pointed out you'd made a load of stuff up. "

Which was disingenuous, given you failed to mention Vincent's later correction as she though her parody was clear when it wasn't.

venusinscorpio · 12/11/2016 14:15

Yes, I know that occasionally happens Queen and it's generally at times when people are feeling very angry and frustrated. These are important issues for the people posting. But I for one will try to bear it in mind more when I post.

OurBlanche · 12/11/2016 14:18

That's all well and good Vince but people are then entitled to read into that behaviour what they will, e.g. that you are indeed being hypocritical.

Venus Is he really misrepresenting what Vince did? Or just not accepting her explanation of what happened? I read both of them and he just seems to be one of those posters who thought she had overstepped a mark... the very reason she gave for having the posts deleted.

Ach! Who cares! The thread has now descended into the very thing that Justine posted about. Squeaky wheels and their rights to be offended!

venusinscorpio · 12/11/2016 14:18

Yes, and you're contributing to that too, aren't you?

qumquat · 12/11/2016 14:19

I'd be interested in a trans affirming feminist theory thread too. I would most likely disagree with it, but I would appreciate some insight into different viewpoints and why it is the mainstream view (outside of MN).

venusinscorpio · 12/11/2016 14:19

IMO he is shit stirring. And I've seen him do it before.

VincentVL · 12/11/2016 14:20

OurBlanche - in what way hypocritical?

I dont have to engage with people who I get the glaring impression are trolling?