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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Mumsnet moderation policy

543 replies

JustineMumsnet · 11/11/2016 15:59

If you've visited Site Stuff in recent times you'll know there's been a fair bit of grousing about our moderation policy. There have been lot of calls from the SN boards in particular but elsewhere too for us to delete many more posts than we are doing at the moment. Equally some on the feminism boards have been particularly angered by the position we've adopted around transphobia.

Those of you who have been around for a bit will also know that some of these debates have been going on a long time.

Mumsnet has always believed - been founded upon - the idea that civilised debate is a broadly positive thing. That we can disagree but agree that people have a right to different opinions. That freedom of speech is in general good and that we'd rather let the conversation flow than censor it. That exposing ourselves to the widest range of arguments and opinions is generally healthier than banishing the ones we don’t like.

Increasingly you'll find that other places on the web will filter out views and information you might not like automatically - Facebook and Google both do this based on the data they have about you (which is a lot). Just take a look at the debate raging in the US right now over whether this kind of tailoring of news – some call it the “filter bubble” effect – was to blame for the election of Donald Trump. Whatever you think of Facebook’s role in sending Trump to the White House, it’s unarguably becoming increasingly hard to watch or read something that hasn't been selected for you.

We've chosen to be public, un-paywalled and welcoming to newbies with different opinions. That means from time to time we may be confronted by views that we think are outlandish and even noxious. Of course - given we're called Mumsnet - we're always going to be a space dominated by women but the only qualification we require of our users is a basic level of civility.

This doesn't mean that it's a complete free for all. Of course we do and will continue to remove posts that break our rules – for instance personal attacks and those that break the law or promote hate. But there are always going to be posts which fall into a grey area - posts that cause offence without intention, perhaps by using words in common use that some believe should be disallowed like “moron” or “idiot”. And our inclination here is to err on the side of free speech rather than censorship.

Many Mumsnetters have told us they've had their minds broadened by posts they've seen on Mumsnet and have become more tolerant and understanding as a result. We do understand it can be frustrating being told that we'd rather host a debate about why something was offensive so folks might change their mind, than delete it. We're mindful of the fact that many of our users are exhausted and often in impossibly difficult situations and would much rather people just understood or piped down - that we just deleted those comments which upset them or banned those who made them. But rightly or wrongly, that's not the Mumsnet we've chosen to be. We've chosen to be open and welcoming to new people and challenging different opinions. We've chosen to be a broad church not a narrow one.

At a time when the rise of intersectional politics often seems to be squeezing the space for public debate, when no-platforming has entered the everyday vocabulary of university campuses and social media reverberates daily to howls of outrage over some linguistic transgression or other, this seems more important than ever.

No-one is pretending that any of this stuff is easy. Rights only really mean anything when they are difficult to protect. And in the case of many of these arguments, we have deep instinctive sympathy with users calling for us to delete posts or ban certain words. We understand how anxious many who’ve battled for women’s rights feel. We understand that language plays an important part in making them feel marginalised and vulnerable. And many of us who have for years read the stirring and humbling posts on the SN boards will instinctively wish to defend parents who feel the casual, thoughtless language used by other posters is making their already hard lives harder still. We would go to the barricades with them in many ways, but not at the expense of a principle which makes Mumsnet what it is.

I think all this is worth stating because, frankly, the aggressive attitude of some Mumsnetters towards the community team in particular needs to stop. It's becoming demoralising and almost impossible to do the job. You couldn't actually hope to meet a nicer, more patient, diligent and selfless crew than the MN community team. Day in day out they do their level best to be fair, decent and consistent. Of course we get things wrong and don't always word things right - who doesn't? - and I know the majority of users know this and I'm really grateful for your support and kind words. The one thing I'm certain of, though, is that decent moderation is a big reason why Mumsnet has thrived and grown over the years.

But there are some users who, from what I've seen, are relentlessly denigrating the team in a way that can really only be described as aggressive heckling. Some of the attacks have been personal and downright nasty. In recent weeks members of the community team have been called ignorant, stupid, rude and not giving a shiny shite. The disabled members of our team have been described as tokens. I personally have been called sneering, supercilious, classist, venal and a hypocrite who’s drowning in the Kool-Aid amongst other things. (Let’s not get into a debate over whether that’s fair…)

The last thing we're saying is that we don't want feedback - we value it hugely, and we will always hold up our hands if we've messed up. (Incidentally almost none of the above critical posts have been deleted.) But, to be frank, if Mumsnet makes you that angry then maybe it's time to accept that it isn't the site for you - you probably need to acknowledge that we simply aren't and never will moderate the way you want us to. After all, we're here to make parents' lives easier and if the way we moderate raising your blood pressure on a daily basis - so much that you're calling the moderators “cunts” - then with the greatest respect I think you need to take a break.

In an increasingly polarised world of trigger warnings and safe spaces, preserving Mumsnet as a place that can host the widest debate in the most civilised fashion seems more important than ever. You’ll have to forgive me if this sounds pompous but this really is about freedom. As so often George Orwell put it best: “If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”

OP posts:
60sname · 11/11/2016 16:43

Well said. A highly vocal minority have been banging the same aggressive drum/s for months now.

Thank you for not trying to be all things to all people.

PurpleDaisies · 11/11/2016 16:44

I really don't understand this mindset that it's up to someone else to come and intervene for you if you feel personally attacked? How is it their responsibility? Its an open forum!

Because that's what MNHQ tell you to do. If you retaliate you get deleted or banned.

usual · 11/11/2016 16:54

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BoreOfWhabylon · 11/11/2016 16:56

I think all this is worth stating because, frankly, the aggressive attitude of some Mumsnetters towards the community team in particular needs to stop.

Yes. Well said Justine

DonkeyOaty · 11/11/2016 16:58

Basically we could all do with sitting on our fuck-it-goblin fingers a bit more.

AnyFucker · 11/11/2016 16:59

I completely agree, Justine.

If I could offer my tuppence a bit further, I would be relaxing the rules slightly on personal attacks. I think it should be ok to respond robustly to damaging shit dressed up as "opinion" and to have the right to reply to thinly veiled goading in the manner you normally would in RL.

Personally, I have come under a fair amount of very personal calls out and the last couple of days have had me staying away from the keyboard because I am the one who gets suspended if I retaliate while the goady NC'ers simply skip away cackling.

Just a thought. Otherwise, crack on Smile

Saucery · 11/11/2016 17:02

Basically, the Product is getting a bit gobby. Like if your carrots did an Ooglies and started encouraging the broccoli to go brown and the quinoa to go stale. You'd boot that shit right out of your shop.

ScarlettDarling · 11/11/2016 17:03

Saucery Grin

Rubberduck2 · 11/11/2016 17:07

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PolterGoose · 11/11/2016 17:08

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BirdOnTheWire · 11/11/2016 17:09

Hmm. There is a lot of nastiness. The longer I've been on MN the more I stick to a few fluffy areas.
I daren't even look at the feminist boards, surely it shouldn't be like that Confused?

TresDesolee · 11/11/2016 17:12

i use Twitter a lot, I'm a product there you might say.

On Twitter if someone sends you a rape threat or tells you to 'DIAF cisscum' or calls you a cunt, you click a button and two days later get an automated response telling you that Twitter HQ doesn't consider it to break their rules.

It's impossible to talk to an individual in the Twitter moderating team, so I never get to scream at them about their stupid decisions.

My point is, Mn doesn't have to moderate the way they do. They could turn on a bunch of auto messages and leave us to scream our abuse into a void. They'd still get hundreds of thousands of people queuing up to chat.

Give them a bit of credit for that. Maybe they just disagree with you. Maybe you're occasionally wrong in your interpretation. Maybe there isn't a 'right' opinion, just difficult shades of grey sometimes.

Not me obviously, I'm never wrong. But I've noticed that other people are very fucking wrong, quite frequently. Funny that

BeyondReasonablyDoubts · 11/11/2016 17:14

I agree with smartleatherhandbag. And I don't believe from the op that you are sharing the entire story honestly with the general population, here.

This has come from people wanting to call someone who preaches vile misogyny a vile misogynist. Even though they are not a mn poster, this is apparently a personal attack and a deletable offence. Weirdly people are annoyed about this.

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 11/11/2016 17:14

In my very limited experience the moderation is fine on mumsnet

I am getting confused with some of the things that are considered a personal attack....aside from the really obvious ones Grin

But as has been said if you're not happy with the moderation then maybe its not the place for you

AnyFucker · 11/11/2016 17:15

Thanks, Rubber. This thread isn't about me of course (heaven forbid) but I just wanted to use my personal experience to make a point.

I would prefer that robust debate is left, not deleted.

However, I would have a zero tolerance approach to PA's on staff members. They are just doin their job. Like folks in A+E, for example. They have a right to go about their business without coming under any form of attack. There are ways to make your point without getting nasty. A little articulacy can go a long way.

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 11/11/2016 17:15

Oh and i agree with polter

NerrSnerr · 11/11/2016 17:15

Beyond I have read the thread you're on about- but the personal attacks on MNHQ started before all that kicked off. Did you read the disablism or diabetes threads? It's not just about one issue.

PurpleDaisies · 11/11/2016 17:16

However, I would have a zero tolerance approach to PA's on staff members. They are just doin their job. Like folks in A+E, for example. They have a right to go about their business without coming under any form of attack. There are ways to make your point without getting nasty. A little articulacy can go a long way.

Hear hear.

AnyFucker · 11/11/2016 17:17

Polter I have been a complete arse on MN several times, for sure. This place is very forgiving and I like that. You can have a right fucking ruck with someone then be supporting each other on another thread.

SoHairyAndForeverSpartacus · 11/11/2016 17:18

I've noticed that scaryclown seems to have some kind of vendetta against you at the moment AnyFucker. I agree with you there!

Justine, I like your closing statement.

"You’ll have to forgive me if this sounds pompous but this really is about freedom. As so often George Orwell put it best: “If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.” "

However, this doesn't seem to extend to telling a male that they are male. There is no freedom on here for that.

AnyFucker · 11/11/2016 17:19

There are a merry little band of them, SoHairy. Meh.

Ayeok · 11/11/2016 17:19

However, I would have a zero tolerance approach to PA's on staff members. They are just doin their job. Like folks in A+E, for example. They have a right to go about their business without coming under any form of attack. There are ways to make your point without getting nasty. A little articulacy can go a long way
I agree.

DeviTheGaelet · 11/11/2016 17:19

Can we not make out this is a "feminist boards" problem?
A lot of the trans threads go in feminism because we get told they shouldn't be in chat or aibu. The issue is the topic is controversial, not that the feminist boards are a bad place to be.

I would also like to see a bit more moderation around goady fuckery. It can be very hard not to respond when people are being deliberately inflammatory and yet staying inside talk guidelines, just.

ClaudiaWankleman · 11/11/2016 17:21

I'm so glad this has been said. I think many people have felt put off by an increasingly aggressive minority who seems to think that MN owes them something.

PortiaCastis · 11/11/2016 17:21

I think we should all remember that Mn staff are human beings and are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Justine and Olivia are on the gin
Wondering if OPs commited a sin
Whatever they do they cannot win
Deletions do not come out of a tin