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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Mumsnet moderation policy

543 replies

JustineMumsnet · 11/11/2016 15:59

If you've visited Site Stuff in recent times you'll know there's been a fair bit of grousing about our moderation policy. There have been lot of calls from the SN boards in particular but elsewhere too for us to delete many more posts than we are doing at the moment. Equally some on the feminism boards have been particularly angered by the position we've adopted around transphobia.

Those of you who have been around for a bit will also know that some of these debates have been going on a long time.

Mumsnet has always believed - been founded upon - the idea that civilised debate is a broadly positive thing. That we can disagree but agree that people have a right to different opinions. That freedom of speech is in general good and that we'd rather let the conversation flow than censor it. That exposing ourselves to the widest range of arguments and opinions is generally healthier than banishing the ones we don’t like.

Increasingly you'll find that other places on the web will filter out views and information you might not like automatically - Facebook and Google both do this based on the data they have about you (which is a lot). Just take a look at the debate raging in the US right now over whether this kind of tailoring of news – some call it the “filter bubble” effect – was to blame for the election of Donald Trump. Whatever you think of Facebook’s role in sending Trump to the White House, it’s unarguably becoming increasingly hard to watch or read something that hasn't been selected for you.

We've chosen to be public, un-paywalled and welcoming to newbies with different opinions. That means from time to time we may be confronted by views that we think are outlandish and even noxious. Of course - given we're called Mumsnet - we're always going to be a space dominated by women but the only qualification we require of our users is a basic level of civility.

This doesn't mean that it's a complete free for all. Of course we do and will continue to remove posts that break our rules – for instance personal attacks and those that break the law or promote hate. But there are always going to be posts which fall into a grey area - posts that cause offence without intention, perhaps by using words in common use that some believe should be disallowed like “moron” or “idiot”. And our inclination here is to err on the side of free speech rather than censorship.

Many Mumsnetters have told us they've had their minds broadened by posts they've seen on Mumsnet and have become more tolerant and understanding as a result. We do understand it can be frustrating being told that we'd rather host a debate about why something was offensive so folks might change their mind, than delete it. We're mindful of the fact that many of our users are exhausted and often in impossibly difficult situations and would much rather people just understood or piped down - that we just deleted those comments which upset them or banned those who made them. But rightly or wrongly, that's not the Mumsnet we've chosen to be. We've chosen to be open and welcoming to new people and challenging different opinions. We've chosen to be a broad church not a narrow one.

At a time when the rise of intersectional politics often seems to be squeezing the space for public debate, when no-platforming has entered the everyday vocabulary of university campuses and social media reverberates daily to howls of outrage over some linguistic transgression or other, this seems more important than ever.

No-one is pretending that any of this stuff is easy. Rights only really mean anything when they are difficult to protect. And in the case of many of these arguments, we have deep instinctive sympathy with users calling for us to delete posts or ban certain words. We understand how anxious many who’ve battled for women’s rights feel. We understand that language plays an important part in making them feel marginalised and vulnerable. And many of us who have for years read the stirring and humbling posts on the SN boards will instinctively wish to defend parents who feel the casual, thoughtless language used by other posters is making their already hard lives harder still. We would go to the barricades with them in many ways, but not at the expense of a principle which makes Mumsnet what it is.

I think all this is worth stating because, frankly, the aggressive attitude of some Mumsnetters towards the community team in particular needs to stop. It's becoming demoralising and almost impossible to do the job. You couldn't actually hope to meet a nicer, more patient, diligent and selfless crew than the MN community team. Day in day out they do their level best to be fair, decent and consistent. Of course we get things wrong and don't always word things right - who doesn't? - and I know the majority of users know this and I'm really grateful for your support and kind words. The one thing I'm certain of, though, is that decent moderation is a big reason why Mumsnet has thrived and grown over the years.

But there are some users who, from what I've seen, are relentlessly denigrating the team in a way that can really only be described as aggressive heckling. Some of the attacks have been personal and downright nasty. In recent weeks members of the community team have been called ignorant, stupid, rude and not giving a shiny shite. The disabled members of our team have been described as tokens. I personally have been called sneering, supercilious, classist, venal and a hypocrite who’s drowning in the Kool-Aid amongst other things. (Let’s not get into a debate over whether that’s fair…)

The last thing we're saying is that we don't want feedback - we value it hugely, and we will always hold up our hands if we've messed up. (Incidentally almost none of the above critical posts have been deleted.) But, to be frank, if Mumsnet makes you that angry then maybe it's time to accept that it isn't the site for you - you probably need to acknowledge that we simply aren't and never will moderate the way you want us to. After all, we're here to make parents' lives easier and if the way we moderate raising your blood pressure on a daily basis - so much that you're calling the moderators “cunts” - then with the greatest respect I think you need to take a break.

In an increasingly polarised world of trigger warnings and safe spaces, preserving Mumsnet as a place that can host the widest debate in the most civilised fashion seems more important than ever. You’ll have to forgive me if this sounds pompous but this really is about freedom. As so often George Orwell put it best: “If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”

OP posts:
OurBlanche · 12/11/2016 14:20

Me? Yes I am! I have just realised that in trying to work out what the fuck really happened I am feeding the fire!

But I am not offended, if that's what you mean. Just perplexed!

OurBlanche · 12/11/2016 14:21

Vince my apologies I was paraphrasing your previous post, as heinous double standard would have taken linger to type

venusinscorpio · 12/11/2016 14:22

I really don't think it is the mainstream view at all. I think most people don't understand the issues or give it that much thought. Shouty people on social media skew our views of what people really think.

OurBlanche · 12/11/2016 14:23

I totally agree with that venus

venusinscorpio · 12/11/2016 14:23

Fair enough Blanche. I think it demonstrates how easy it is to get sucked into these arguments.

YonicProbe · 12/11/2016 14:25

Soooo... crap weather today, hmm?

venusinscorpio · 12/11/2016 14:26

Yes, apparently much nicer tomorrow Smile

PigletWasPoohsFriend · 12/11/2016 14:26

Very icy yonic Wink

OurBlanche · 12/11/2016 14:26

Yup Smile Miserable weather

OurBlanche · 12/11/2016 14:27

And a supermoon on Monday Grin

YonicProbe · 12/11/2016 14:28

Have to drag myself off the sofa shortly to take ds2 to a party. Grrr!

TiggyD · 12/11/2016 14:33

I too would be interested in a trans-affirming feminist theory thread

Tempting, but it's that whole thing about 'only surrounding yourself with opinions you have already' problem isn't it. There's the anti-trans forum where only anti-trans opinions are tolerated, so to have a pro-trans forum where only pro-trans opinions are tolerated doesn't make 2 forums that are equally as good, but 2 forums that are equally as bad.

I read posts from extremists from both sides of the debate and they're equally as bad as each other. A naice forum where views can be discussed with politeness and respect would be welcomed by me. No talking about views being violent or child abuse etc.

OurBlanche · 12/11/2016 14:35

I read posts from extremists from both sides of the debate and they're equally as bad as each other. A naice forum where views can be discussed with politeness and respect would be welcomed by me. No talking about views being violent or child abuse etc.

Which, hopefully, with the moderation on offer we can have (please).

venusinscorpio · 12/11/2016 14:35

Fair comment, Tiggy.

TiggyD · 12/11/2016 14:35

Hoping for good weather in London on Thursday. I'm taking a couple of youngsters sightseeing.

Piscivorus · 12/11/2016 14:36

Gosh this has really moved on quickly

I just wanted to say that I agree with Justine's stance and have thought myself that recent complaining about moderating was out of hand. I live in a backwater and have been very lucky and somewhat sheltered in my life so a lot of my knowledge and opinions have been formed by the posts of those MNetters who have shared experience of disability, gender, health and benefits, etc. I abhor the current trend for silencing diversity of opinion and welcome this space for people to discuss (yes, even "robustly") and learn. Long may it continue.
Well said Justine

DeviTheGaelet · 12/11/2016 14:36

Well I'm more on the gender critical side but want to hear more about the theory. As has been said, it's more often people come on and say we are trans phobic and it's so sad, then bugger off without explaining. I cannot actually get a sense of the other position TBH. I'd love a thread where it was explained factually.

VincentVL · 12/11/2016 14:38

Ah ok I see what you mean, but I dont have to waste time on men who patronise me, insult me, order me about, or otherwise troll me.

VincentVL · 12/11/2016 14:39

sorry took me ages to reply now that just looks out of context!

TiggyD · 12/11/2016 14:42

Annoying sometimes isn't it Vincent. I tried to type something intelligent and post to find everybody was talking about the bloody weather.

PortiaCastis · 12/11/2016 14:42

Just coughed up £500 for an injuction to keep the bastard away from dd and myself.

YonicProbe · 12/11/2016 14:47

You ok, Portia? Flowers

PortiaCastis · 12/11/2016 15:03

Yes I am now thanks Yonic

Amalfimamma · 12/11/2016 15:52

As has been said, it's more often people come on and say we are trans phobic and it's so sad, then bugger off without explaining.

Even worse are those who call us transphobic, are asked to show what and which posts are trainsphobic and answer with "I don't like to stick around on these posts so I'll not be quoting or linking as they make me sick"

But they stick around enough to insult most of the posters, their families and children. People who refuse to prove their screams of transphobia, bigotry, racism etc etc should not be allowed on the Internet imho

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 12/11/2016 15:58

Or alternatively those posts should be treated as PAs, which would be in keeping with the overall aim of polite and reasonable discourse.
If you point to a specific statement and say 'that is misogynist/transphobic' it feeds into the discussion, but if you just say 'you're saying misogynist/transphobic things' but refuse to specify, that is arguably just making an attack rather than a contribution to the discussion.