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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Mumsnet moderation policy

543 replies

JustineMumsnet · 11/11/2016 15:59

If you've visited Site Stuff in recent times you'll know there's been a fair bit of grousing about our moderation policy. There have been lot of calls from the SN boards in particular but elsewhere too for us to delete many more posts than we are doing at the moment. Equally some on the feminism boards have been particularly angered by the position we've adopted around transphobia.

Those of you who have been around for a bit will also know that some of these debates have been going on a long time.

Mumsnet has always believed - been founded upon - the idea that civilised debate is a broadly positive thing. That we can disagree but agree that people have a right to different opinions. That freedom of speech is in general good and that we'd rather let the conversation flow than censor it. That exposing ourselves to the widest range of arguments and opinions is generally healthier than banishing the ones we don’t like.

Increasingly you'll find that other places on the web will filter out views and information you might not like automatically - Facebook and Google both do this based on the data they have about you (which is a lot). Just take a look at the debate raging in the US right now over whether this kind of tailoring of news – some call it the “filter bubble” effect – was to blame for the election of Donald Trump. Whatever you think of Facebook’s role in sending Trump to the White House, it’s unarguably becoming increasingly hard to watch or read something that hasn't been selected for you.

We've chosen to be public, un-paywalled and welcoming to newbies with different opinions. That means from time to time we may be confronted by views that we think are outlandish and even noxious. Of course - given we're called Mumsnet - we're always going to be a space dominated by women but the only qualification we require of our users is a basic level of civility.

This doesn't mean that it's a complete free for all. Of course we do and will continue to remove posts that break our rules – for instance personal attacks and those that break the law or promote hate. But there are always going to be posts which fall into a grey area - posts that cause offence without intention, perhaps by using words in common use that some believe should be disallowed like “moron” or “idiot”. And our inclination here is to err on the side of free speech rather than censorship.

Many Mumsnetters have told us they've had their minds broadened by posts they've seen on Mumsnet and have become more tolerant and understanding as a result. We do understand it can be frustrating being told that we'd rather host a debate about why something was offensive so folks might change their mind, than delete it. We're mindful of the fact that many of our users are exhausted and often in impossibly difficult situations and would much rather people just understood or piped down - that we just deleted those comments which upset them or banned those who made them. But rightly or wrongly, that's not the Mumsnet we've chosen to be. We've chosen to be open and welcoming to new people and challenging different opinions. We've chosen to be a broad church not a narrow one.

At a time when the rise of intersectional politics often seems to be squeezing the space for public debate, when no-platforming has entered the everyday vocabulary of university campuses and social media reverberates daily to howls of outrage over some linguistic transgression or other, this seems more important than ever.

No-one is pretending that any of this stuff is easy. Rights only really mean anything when they are difficult to protect. And in the case of many of these arguments, we have deep instinctive sympathy with users calling for us to delete posts or ban certain words. We understand how anxious many who’ve battled for women’s rights feel. We understand that language plays an important part in making them feel marginalised and vulnerable. And many of us who have for years read the stirring and humbling posts on the SN boards will instinctively wish to defend parents who feel the casual, thoughtless language used by other posters is making their already hard lives harder still. We would go to the barricades with them in many ways, but not at the expense of a principle which makes Mumsnet what it is.

I think all this is worth stating because, frankly, the aggressive attitude of some Mumsnetters towards the community team in particular needs to stop. It's becoming demoralising and almost impossible to do the job. You couldn't actually hope to meet a nicer, more patient, diligent and selfless crew than the MN community team. Day in day out they do their level best to be fair, decent and consistent. Of course we get things wrong and don't always word things right - who doesn't? - and I know the majority of users know this and I'm really grateful for your support and kind words. The one thing I'm certain of, though, is that decent moderation is a big reason why Mumsnet has thrived and grown over the years.

But there are some users who, from what I've seen, are relentlessly denigrating the team in a way that can really only be described as aggressive heckling. Some of the attacks have been personal and downright nasty. In recent weeks members of the community team have been called ignorant, stupid, rude and not giving a shiny shite. The disabled members of our team have been described as tokens. I personally have been called sneering, supercilious, classist, venal and a hypocrite who’s drowning in the Kool-Aid amongst other things. (Let’s not get into a debate over whether that’s fair…)

The last thing we're saying is that we don't want feedback - we value it hugely, and we will always hold up our hands if we've messed up. (Incidentally almost none of the above critical posts have been deleted.) But, to be frank, if Mumsnet makes you that angry then maybe it's time to accept that it isn't the site for you - you probably need to acknowledge that we simply aren't and never will moderate the way you want us to. After all, we're here to make parents' lives easier and if the way we moderate raising your blood pressure on a daily basis - so much that you're calling the moderators “cunts” - then with the greatest respect I think you need to take a break.

In an increasingly polarised world of trigger warnings and safe spaces, preserving Mumsnet as a place that can host the widest debate in the most civilised fashion seems more important than ever. You’ll have to forgive me if this sounds pompous but this really is about freedom. As so often George Orwell put it best: “If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”

OP posts:
DeviTheGaelet · 12/11/2016 13:11

It's not like dad has any ulterior motive in wanting feminist posters off mumsnet, is it now?

VincentVL · 12/11/2016 13:15

To be fair it can be quite distressing for some men to hear the views of women who disagree with them. Maybe Dad just needs a bit of a sit down?

QueenMortificado · 12/11/2016 13:17

Christ, what nastiness this thread has turned in to Confused

VoyageOfDad · 12/11/2016 13:20

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DeviTheGaelet · 12/11/2016 13:26

No I think you have an issue with feminists on mumsnet, as demonstrated by numerous posts you have made in the past. You are taking advantage on this thread of an opportunity to attack us while seeming "right on". I'm just flagging it so people reading realise this may not be as straightforward as it seems.
Anyway I don't want to derail so I won't respond on this matter again

VincentVL · 12/11/2016 13:28

I think that youre the sort of man that tells women who disagree with him that they should vacate the premises. Because that is what you have just been doing. As such I now feel completely free to ignore the rest of your posts as irrelevant.

VoyageOfDad · 12/11/2016 13:29

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PigletWasPoohsFriend · 12/11/2016 13:29

Wow.....

VoyageOfDad · 12/11/2016 13:33

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

OurBlanche · 12/11/2016 13:33

Huh? Confused

Bummymummy77 · 12/11/2016 13:33

I've been on a few other forums over the years and seen straight up death threats which didn't get removed.

I think there should be even less censorship on mumnset. You can't just pretend there aren't dickheads in the world and scream and ignore them.

That's how Brexit and Trump happened.

venusinscorpio · 12/11/2016 13:35

Your posts sniping at people aren't exactly helpful either, are they VoyageofDad? You have your own biases.

QueenMortificado · 12/11/2016 13:37

VoyageofDad is just repeating what Justine said - why is everyone piling in on him? Because he is a man?

I agree with what he is saying entirely. And I'm a woman.

PigletWasPoohsFriend · 12/11/2016 13:39

I agree with what he is saying entirely. And I'm a woman

Me too.

Bummymummy77 · 12/11/2016 13:39

Nobody is being forced to use mumsnet.

It's not a tax funded public service.

If you don't like it, off you fuck. Grin

OurBlanche · 12/11/2016 13:39

Same as every other poster, with opinions and the sniping! We all have our own biases.

Why not just talk to the nasty-man-who-has-rasied-his-head-above-the-parapet, instead of shouting him down? Vincent's last 2 posts are simply sexist versions of troll hunting... not allowed, should just have used the report button... or, best outcome, just bloody enter into a dialogue.

If said man is a tosser he will self identify. If not then we could have had a much more interesting discussion.

Surely part of Justine's OP is bemoaning such tactics that try to shut down debate?

YonicProbe · 12/11/2016 13:39

Queen

It was his post about Vincent that lot the touch paper; he conveniently ignored in his summary that she had apologised for the misunderstanding over her post that looked like it quoted PL.

ChariotOfFire · 12/11/2016 13:40

I've been on MN since 2004, although I post far less than I read and have never been a prolific poster. I have joined trans threads on FWR a couple of times but as a trans-affirming feminist have been shouted down, and have given up trying. So I rarely look at FWR these days because I know it's just not going to speak to or for me.

The result of this is that the kind of open, civilised conversation that Justine talks about in her OP here - as she says, vanishingly rare online these days - becomes less and less possible in the more contentious areas of MN. I'd be really interested in exploring trans-affirming feminist theory - but in the current climate, I don't think MN is the place for this, which is a shame, because then MN becomes yet another online echo chamber and the more interesting conversations never get to happen. There have been aspects of MN over the 12 yrs I've been here when respectful, open conversation around issues over which posters disagree profoundly has happened, but trans threads don't seem to be able to hold more than one viewpoint respectfully - if I've missed or forgotten any that have pulled this off, I'd be delighted to be corrected! Let's hope the winds of change blow back the other way before long!

SoHairyAndForeverSpartacus · 12/11/2016 13:40

Thus is what I object to VoyageOfDad saying:

"Seems to have been taken over by the exact same people who've been attacking Justine and MNHQ."

Thats an attack on myself, and a few other posters who were on both threads. I have not been attacking Justine! In fact up thread I agreed that personal attacks on MNHQ should not be tolerated!

I object to a man coming along and smearing my name and others when we haven't necessarily done anything wrong.

QueenMortificado · 12/11/2016 13:46

Thats an attack on myself, and a few other posters who were on both threads. I have not been attacking Justine! In fact up thread I agreed that personal attacks on MNHQ should not be tolerated!

I object to a man coming along and smearing my name and others when we haven't necessarily done anything wrong.

If you haven't done anything wrong then he isn't talking about you, so it's not a personal attack on you

OurBlanche · 12/11/2016 13:46

So tell him! Tell him why you disagree. Have a fucking debate! To be fair you seem to have accepted the slur, he didn't name you, you took the hat and seem to have chosen to wear it

And surely feminism isn't about 'othering' men!

Or is my 70s centric feminism letting me down again?

venusinscorpio · 12/11/2016 13:48

The thing is, Chariot, in my experience "trans affirming feminist theory" doesn't stand up to any logical exploration. If you want to start a non echo chamber thread and debate the issues politely I'm more than happy to participate. But I will challenge your views. Generally "trans affirming feminists" don't like that.

TiggyD · 12/11/2016 13:48

"I object to a man coming along and smearing my name..."

But you'd be fine with a woman smearing your name?

SoHairyAndForeverSpartacus · 12/11/2016 13:50

He was very clearly talking about whoever had been recently posting on this thread at the time he posted that. My post immediately preceeded his.
He was implying that posters engaging him here were the worst offenders on the PL thread. Which is not true. In my opinion, obviously.

YonicProbe · 12/11/2016 13:50

Well, this is going well!

Swipe left for the next trending thread