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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Mumsnet moderation policy

543 replies

JustineMumsnet · 11/11/2016 15:59

If you've visited Site Stuff in recent times you'll know there's been a fair bit of grousing about our moderation policy. There have been lot of calls from the SN boards in particular but elsewhere too for us to delete many more posts than we are doing at the moment. Equally some on the feminism boards have been particularly angered by the position we've adopted around transphobia.

Those of you who have been around for a bit will also know that some of these debates have been going on a long time.

Mumsnet has always believed - been founded upon - the idea that civilised debate is a broadly positive thing. That we can disagree but agree that people have a right to different opinions. That freedom of speech is in general good and that we'd rather let the conversation flow than censor it. That exposing ourselves to the widest range of arguments and opinions is generally healthier than banishing the ones we don’t like.

Increasingly you'll find that other places on the web will filter out views and information you might not like automatically - Facebook and Google both do this based on the data they have about you (which is a lot). Just take a look at the debate raging in the US right now over whether this kind of tailoring of news – some call it the “filter bubble” effect – was to blame for the election of Donald Trump. Whatever you think of Facebook’s role in sending Trump to the White House, it’s unarguably becoming increasingly hard to watch or read something that hasn't been selected for you.

We've chosen to be public, un-paywalled and welcoming to newbies with different opinions. That means from time to time we may be confronted by views that we think are outlandish and even noxious. Of course - given we're called Mumsnet - we're always going to be a space dominated by women but the only qualification we require of our users is a basic level of civility.

This doesn't mean that it's a complete free for all. Of course we do and will continue to remove posts that break our rules – for instance personal attacks and those that break the law or promote hate. But there are always going to be posts which fall into a grey area - posts that cause offence without intention, perhaps by using words in common use that some believe should be disallowed like “moron” or “idiot”. And our inclination here is to err on the side of free speech rather than censorship.

Many Mumsnetters have told us they've had their minds broadened by posts they've seen on Mumsnet and have become more tolerant and understanding as a result. We do understand it can be frustrating being told that we'd rather host a debate about why something was offensive so folks might change their mind, than delete it. We're mindful of the fact that many of our users are exhausted and often in impossibly difficult situations and would much rather people just understood or piped down - that we just deleted those comments which upset them or banned those who made them. But rightly or wrongly, that's not the Mumsnet we've chosen to be. We've chosen to be open and welcoming to new people and challenging different opinions. We've chosen to be a broad church not a narrow one.

At a time when the rise of intersectional politics often seems to be squeezing the space for public debate, when no-platforming has entered the everyday vocabulary of university campuses and social media reverberates daily to howls of outrage over some linguistic transgression or other, this seems more important than ever.

No-one is pretending that any of this stuff is easy. Rights only really mean anything when they are difficult to protect. And in the case of many of these arguments, we have deep instinctive sympathy with users calling for us to delete posts or ban certain words. We understand how anxious many who’ve battled for women’s rights feel. We understand that language plays an important part in making them feel marginalised and vulnerable. And many of us who have for years read the stirring and humbling posts on the SN boards will instinctively wish to defend parents who feel the casual, thoughtless language used by other posters is making their already hard lives harder still. We would go to the barricades with them in many ways, but not at the expense of a principle which makes Mumsnet what it is.

I think all this is worth stating because, frankly, the aggressive attitude of some Mumsnetters towards the community team in particular needs to stop. It's becoming demoralising and almost impossible to do the job. You couldn't actually hope to meet a nicer, more patient, diligent and selfless crew than the MN community team. Day in day out they do their level best to be fair, decent and consistent. Of course we get things wrong and don't always word things right - who doesn't? - and I know the majority of users know this and I'm really grateful for your support and kind words. The one thing I'm certain of, though, is that decent moderation is a big reason why Mumsnet has thrived and grown over the years.

But there are some users who, from what I've seen, are relentlessly denigrating the team in a way that can really only be described as aggressive heckling. Some of the attacks have been personal and downright nasty. In recent weeks members of the community team have been called ignorant, stupid, rude and not giving a shiny shite. The disabled members of our team have been described as tokens. I personally have been called sneering, supercilious, classist, venal and a hypocrite who’s drowning in the Kool-Aid amongst other things. (Let’s not get into a debate over whether that’s fair…)

The last thing we're saying is that we don't want feedback - we value it hugely, and we will always hold up our hands if we've messed up. (Incidentally almost none of the above critical posts have been deleted.) But, to be frank, if Mumsnet makes you that angry then maybe it's time to accept that it isn't the site for you - you probably need to acknowledge that we simply aren't and never will moderate the way you want us to. After all, we're here to make parents' lives easier and if the way we moderate raising your blood pressure on a daily basis - so much that you're calling the moderators “cunts” - then with the greatest respect I think you need to take a break.

In an increasingly polarised world of trigger warnings and safe spaces, preserving Mumsnet as a place that can host the widest debate in the most civilised fashion seems more important than ever. You’ll have to forgive me if this sounds pompous but this really is about freedom. As so often George Orwell put it best: “If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”

OP posts:
BeyondReasonablyDoubts · 11/11/2016 20:52

Noooo, I meant you mentioned it upthread. Apologies if it wasn't you and you were just stuck in my head for some reason!! Grin

ghostspirit · 11/11/2016 20:54

There seems to be nastyness everywhere on mn. I do think that should stop. But I do think mn are ace mods. And do look into things when reported.

I like the peace and love message
To me that says where watching Grin

DioneTheDiabolist · 11/11/2016 20:55

There was a mermaid invasion?Shock I missed it.Sad

YonicProbe · 11/11/2016 20:57

"Is calling transwomen "he" on Mumsnet a criminal offence? Yes. "

Is it, Tiggy? Do you know if the police have ever investigated it and considered if MN posts constitute harassment in this way?

I use preferred pronouns or avoid pronouns so I'm not affected by your answer.

Somerville · 11/11/2016 21:17

I don't have time to read much past Justine's OP tonight, so I'm probably parroting something PP's have said better, but as someone who finds threads on disabilities generally too lightly moderated and threads on women's rights (yes, sometimes in the face of trans people who want to take over female accolades or spaces) generally too over moderated I suspect my time around here is limited.

Having said that - her house, her rules. And absolutely MN staff should not be subject to workplace harassment of any sort.

Somerville · 11/11/2016 21:23

And now I feel the need to clarify my point above: I'm not saying all trans people want to take over female spaces or accolades. Far, far from it. The trans people I know want to live their lives happily and not trample over anyone else's rights, from what I can tell.
I was referring to the person who was already a soldier in and then took some hormones for a few weeks to become the first 'female' infantry soldier, which takes the accolade away from the first (biological) female to do so. Deletions on threads like that are too heavy handed for my liking.

LumpySpacedPrincess · 11/11/2016 21:28

Mumsnet is pretty much the only place where some people understand the depth and breadth of this hugely complex and fashionable issue.

Let's not lose that.

Feminism isn't very fashionable at the moment and it's going to become even more unfashionable, doesn't mean that it's not needed.

FRETGNIKCUF · 11/11/2016 22:00

Runs in

Anyfucker is pretty much always right.
Personal attacks on MN staff is beyond the pale.

Runs out

FRETGNIKCUF · 11/11/2016 22:00

Are.

FRETGNIKCUF · 11/11/2016 22:03

Reddit?

I don't think loads of people were saying MN was full of trans activists.

Unless I missed it.

HairyLittlePoet · 11/11/2016 22:08

I would welcome less moderation not more. Up until very recently I had noticed a much more even-handed moderation from the admins and had made a point of thanking them for their efforts in treading a fine line with grace.

But recently moderation has become aggressive and one-sided.

In particular the relentless censorship of people who as a matter of integrity - and not of malice - refuse to be compelled to use pronouns that imply a person is a different sex. I respect other people's right to hold beliefs (in gender) that are hurtful to me, but I don't want to be compelled to lie or pretend or deceive others through using dishonest language that is forced upon me.
I want to use language honestly and yes, without intent to harm, but you want to censor me for that.

You know that many feminists reject gender entirely, yet you insist we show deference and respect to the concept if it is demanded of us. You don't allow for a poster to use their language with honesty. You insist upon submission to your ideals, not ours. You know that it is a fundamental principle for some of us to use pronouns to refer to sex alone.

You characterise principled and fairminded beliefs from some of the most intelligent, honest, and thoughtful posters as transphobic. And you censor and delete and prevent free speech - even when it is obvious it is not an attack but an honest and truthful and fair comment.

You seem to understand that there is a direct conflict: my right to use my own truthful language vs the right of another person to control my speech because they don't like my honest choice of words chosen carefully and used in good faith.

Demanding a speaker use pronouns in conflict with their own beliefs is like demanding an atheist capitalise her use of 'He' and refer to a God whose existence she refutes.
If you can support an atheist in her right not to be compelled to pretend to respect a concept she rejects, you can support a feminist not to be compelled to use 'she' 'they' 'ze' or any other language of gender, but instead to use the language of their own principles.
Even if it hurts the believer to hear another belief than their own.

Spartacus threads moved things along. There are hundreds of people on MN who resent hugely that they are once again censored for using 'he' for males. What do you propose Justine? Are you going to continue to exhaustively delete every poster who uses pronouns for sex not gender? I had noticed that this heavy handed moderation had lightened until very recently. And now it's back, and things are worse for it.
Let people speak honestly. Differentiate better between actual personal attacks and honest words written in good faith.

AlchemySchmidtsSmile · 11/11/2016 22:16

^ But you do not have to use pronouns at all...you can repeat the person's name if you cannot bear to use their preferred pronoun. Or it's just not the site for you, but everyone threatening to boycott won't do that. Justine is calling your bluff - nowhere else on the internet would qllow the debate this site allows.

Ayeok · 11/11/2016 22:20

Or it's just not the site for you, but everyone threatening to boycott won't do that
And on that note....
Seriously though, when you've got non-arsey posters being banned arbitrarily, yet a small minority of goady and frankly nasty fuckers (nothing to do with the trans threads or disablism, I'm talking about a small group of posters who just wander MN deliberately being cunts and looking to upset/hurt people for their own enjoyment) are given free rein, it's time to go.

Mumsnet moderation policy
BeyondReasonablyDoubts · 11/11/2016 22:35

Re Reddit, we wanted somewhere we could get back in touch as a few people were banned in a short space of time. And what with being an anonymous forum, those people (one of whom had been discussing personal life events before their banning) were completely cut off from their support network.

Unfortunately Reddit has somewhat a life of its own and there were some very unpleasant posts. No idea whether they came from regular mners or just random people.

WorraLiberty · 11/11/2016 22:35

It makes me wonder how many flouncers actually stay gone, once they've flounced.

I was reading a thread the other day where a couple of people said they were de-registering out of protest.

2 days later, they appeared to be back with 'user number' names, posting exactly the same things and having the same arguments as they were before they 'left' Confused

BeyondReasonablyDoubts · 11/11/2016 22:38

But the whole reddit radfem mn subforum is yet another thing that gets misrepresented in these discussions.

ErrolTheDragon · 11/11/2016 22:39

Sorry, just coming back after a bit of rl, and wanted to answer Justine from way upthread.

You would be much politer in person though Errol - I guarantee. And it's always been our policy to treat guests as we would people we'd invited for tea!

The thing is, 'that thread' wasn't imo the equivalent of the tea party itself (thats the blogfest). It was more like meeting the host beforehand and saying to her, 'wtf did you invite uncle jack for, he's a ConfusedConfused'.

Of course, on the net there's the complication that 'uncle jack' might be eavesdropping the conversation before the teaparty.

ManaFleet · 11/11/2016 22:52
  1. Yep, agree with all that
  2. Really beautifully written
WhirlwindHugs · 11/11/2016 23:02

Flowers for MNHQ. You are much appreciated by most.

shinynewusername · 11/11/2016 23:08

Shiny you don't seem to understand, Justine is saying quite clearly that the verbal abuse she received for booking a guest you dislike at Blogfest was not acceptable. You have no right to tell her that it's ok for her to be verbally abused and insulted, because "she provoked you". What sort of a supposedly feminist argument is that?

Where did I suggest that I or anyone else had the right to abuse or insult Justine FFS? Hmm

The point is that any hostility on the PL thread was entirely mutual and that the thread only arose in the first place because of MN's decision to promote PL who is extremely hostile to women. So it is hypocritical and misleading to imply that a bunch of MNetters have randomly ganged up to be mean to Justine.

I believe it is wrong to verbally abuse someone, whatever the provocation. It's a pity that PL does not share this view - Paris has repeatedly abused women online. Apparently, this does not stop Justine thinking that Paris has much to teach MNetters about 'online campaigning'.

IPityThePontipines · 11/11/2016 23:18

The point is that any hostility on the PL thread was entirely mutual

No, it was certainly not. Justine was absolutely not hostile towards you, so stop making excuses for the poor behaviour of yourself and others.

But then, I think you would consider anything less than cringing apologies and PL being instantly uninvited as hostility.

You wanted your own way and were quite happy to insult and bully until that happened.

venusinscorpio · 11/11/2016 23:21

Shiny means about Paris Lees. But don't let that stop you.

AskBasil · 11/11/2016 23:21

I genuinely LOLed at this being about freedom.

Freedom to point out that someone you've invited to Blogfest has a track record of misogyny?

Er, no. Fuck off if you don't like it, this isn't the site for you.

Finding this a bit fascinating and car-crashy.

VincentVL · 11/11/2016 23:24

Maybe someone will be brave enough at Blogfest to ask Paris Lees about their online harassment campaign called 'Julie Bindel's Vagina'

SoHairyAndForeverSpartacus · 11/11/2016 23:25

IPityThePontipines I really don't think saying shiny has been insulting and bullying towards Justine is a fair representation of their posts on that thread.