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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Mumsnet moderation policy

543 replies

JustineMumsnet · 11/11/2016 15:59

If you've visited Site Stuff in recent times you'll know there's been a fair bit of grousing about our moderation policy. There have been lot of calls from the SN boards in particular but elsewhere too for us to delete many more posts than we are doing at the moment. Equally some on the feminism boards have been particularly angered by the position we've adopted around transphobia.

Those of you who have been around for a bit will also know that some of these debates have been going on a long time.

Mumsnet has always believed - been founded upon - the idea that civilised debate is a broadly positive thing. That we can disagree but agree that people have a right to different opinions. That freedom of speech is in general good and that we'd rather let the conversation flow than censor it. That exposing ourselves to the widest range of arguments and opinions is generally healthier than banishing the ones we don’t like.

Increasingly you'll find that other places on the web will filter out views and information you might not like automatically - Facebook and Google both do this based on the data they have about you (which is a lot). Just take a look at the debate raging in the US right now over whether this kind of tailoring of news – some call it the “filter bubble” effect – was to blame for the election of Donald Trump. Whatever you think of Facebook’s role in sending Trump to the White House, it’s unarguably becoming increasingly hard to watch or read something that hasn't been selected for you.

We've chosen to be public, un-paywalled and welcoming to newbies with different opinions. That means from time to time we may be confronted by views that we think are outlandish and even noxious. Of course - given we're called Mumsnet - we're always going to be a space dominated by women but the only qualification we require of our users is a basic level of civility.

This doesn't mean that it's a complete free for all. Of course we do and will continue to remove posts that break our rules – for instance personal attacks and those that break the law or promote hate. But there are always going to be posts which fall into a grey area - posts that cause offence without intention, perhaps by using words in common use that some believe should be disallowed like “moron” or “idiot”. And our inclination here is to err on the side of free speech rather than censorship.

Many Mumsnetters have told us they've had their minds broadened by posts they've seen on Mumsnet and have become more tolerant and understanding as a result. We do understand it can be frustrating being told that we'd rather host a debate about why something was offensive so folks might change their mind, than delete it. We're mindful of the fact that many of our users are exhausted and often in impossibly difficult situations and would much rather people just understood or piped down - that we just deleted those comments which upset them or banned those who made them. But rightly or wrongly, that's not the Mumsnet we've chosen to be. We've chosen to be open and welcoming to new people and challenging different opinions. We've chosen to be a broad church not a narrow one.

At a time when the rise of intersectional politics often seems to be squeezing the space for public debate, when no-platforming has entered the everyday vocabulary of university campuses and social media reverberates daily to howls of outrage over some linguistic transgression or other, this seems more important than ever.

No-one is pretending that any of this stuff is easy. Rights only really mean anything when they are difficult to protect. And in the case of many of these arguments, we have deep instinctive sympathy with users calling for us to delete posts or ban certain words. We understand how anxious many who’ve battled for women’s rights feel. We understand that language plays an important part in making them feel marginalised and vulnerable. And many of us who have for years read the stirring and humbling posts on the SN boards will instinctively wish to defend parents who feel the casual, thoughtless language used by other posters is making their already hard lives harder still. We would go to the barricades with them in many ways, but not at the expense of a principle which makes Mumsnet what it is.

I think all this is worth stating because, frankly, the aggressive attitude of some Mumsnetters towards the community team in particular needs to stop. It's becoming demoralising and almost impossible to do the job. You couldn't actually hope to meet a nicer, more patient, diligent and selfless crew than the MN community team. Day in day out they do their level best to be fair, decent and consistent. Of course we get things wrong and don't always word things right - who doesn't? - and I know the majority of users know this and I'm really grateful for your support and kind words. The one thing I'm certain of, though, is that decent moderation is a big reason why Mumsnet has thrived and grown over the years.

But there are some users who, from what I've seen, are relentlessly denigrating the team in a way that can really only be described as aggressive heckling. Some of the attacks have been personal and downright nasty. In recent weeks members of the community team have been called ignorant, stupid, rude and not giving a shiny shite. The disabled members of our team have been described as tokens. I personally have been called sneering, supercilious, classist, venal and a hypocrite who’s drowning in the Kool-Aid amongst other things. (Let’s not get into a debate over whether that’s fair…)

The last thing we're saying is that we don't want feedback - we value it hugely, and we will always hold up our hands if we've messed up. (Incidentally almost none of the above critical posts have been deleted.) But, to be frank, if Mumsnet makes you that angry then maybe it's time to accept that it isn't the site for you - you probably need to acknowledge that we simply aren't and never will moderate the way you want us to. After all, we're here to make parents' lives easier and if the way we moderate raising your blood pressure on a daily basis - so much that you're calling the moderators “cunts” - then with the greatest respect I think you need to take a break.

In an increasingly polarised world of trigger warnings and safe spaces, preserving Mumsnet as a place that can host the widest debate in the most civilised fashion seems more important than ever. You’ll have to forgive me if this sounds pompous but this really is about freedom. As so often George Orwell put it best: “If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”

OP posts:
VincentVL · 11/11/2016 23:26

Just the sort of person a parents website should be promoting, really.

IPityThePontipines · 11/11/2016 23:27

Shiny means about Paris Lees. But don't let that stop you.

Paris Lees wasn't on the thread. Justine was and it was her you took your anger out on, to the extent she considers the response of some posters towards herself on that thread to be so unpleasant, that she's started a thread in Site Stuff about it.

Those are the facts.

venusinscorpio · 11/11/2016 23:27

I doubt it Vincent, given that Paris is apparently untouchable.

SoHairyAndForeverSpartacus · 11/11/2016 23:28

Nope, misrepresentation again IPityThePontipines.

Justine herself said this was not prompted only by threads on FWR.

Amalfimamma · 11/11/2016 23:31

I propose a collection to buy IPityThePontipines glasses r Christmas because she clearly has trouble seeing.

Did you eveneed read the thread IPityThePontipines?

PortiaCastis · 11/11/2016 23:33

I've never heard of Paris wotnot until I read about them on here so I cannot be rude about said person.
I do think the moderators have a difficult job especially when the report system goes wrong. They must have thousands of reports everyday to go through but can never please everyone as we are all different. Simplistic I know but that's how I see things

shinynewusername · 11/11/2016 23:36

IPityThePontipines, perhaps you could point me to any of my posts that were insulting or bullying to Justine or anyone else?

venusinscorpio · 11/11/2016 23:39

Ipity, she's referring to the criticism she got in that Diabetes thread too, you know, the one you were happy to stick your oar in on?

IPityThePontipines · 12/11/2016 00:04

Shiny - if your posts weren't, plenty of others were. The fact is that you are defending the abuse Justine got on the PL thread and trying to claim that "hostility was mutual".

Amalfi - Yes, I read the thread. Thank you for your concern about my eyesight, but glasses are not required.

Venus - congratulations on your successful usage of the AS function. I don't think my post on there was personally insulting to Justine, even though as an NHS worker, I get quite grumpy at claims that anyone other than this government are bankrupting the NHS.

But again, my posts on another thread still doesn't make the PL thread ok and it cannot be denied that thread seems to have been the last straw for MNHQ.

venusinscorpio · 12/11/2016 00:09

I didn't use the AS function, I was just now reading the thread.

venusinscorpio · 12/11/2016 00:14

I've also just been reading the Diversity Training one. I feel sure that the criticism of MNHQ and mumsnet on that thread (rightly or wrongly) was just as harsh if not more so. The saying "Last straw that broke the camel's back" means that you've put up with a lot already so a relatively minor thing makes the difference. Don't you think?

DioneTheDiabolist · 12/11/2016 00:19

But this thread isn't about "freedom" Basil, it's about the rules of the site and how the staff at MNHQ are treated when they apply these rules.

venusinscorpio · 12/11/2016 00:24

The Orwell quote was about freedom. Justine was combining two different issues into one post. Bits of it didn't fit together, IMHO. But I get why she did it.

DioneTheDiabolist · 12/11/2016 00:32

The point is that any hostility on the PL thread was entirely mutual and the thread only arose in the first place because of MN's decision to promote PL who is extremely hostile to women.

The hostility on the PL thread was not at all mutual. Posters were hostile to JustineMN, she was not hostile to them. Indeed she confirmed a change of Chair on the thread and still it wasn't enough to stop unpleasant comments about her personally, continuing into a second thread.Hmm

WitchOfEorzea · 12/11/2016 02:07

You would be much politer in person though Errol - I guarantee.

Hahaha!

I bet Paris is nice in person too, she only ever insults and bullies her victims online.

This whole 'we can agree to disagree but we will never change our minds do you might as well not bother telling us if you feel we are out of order' is all a bit....

Have you read that thread? The one about the left needing to stop looking down their noses at the 'others'.

Oblomov16 · 12/11/2016 02:47

I was on one of the threads referenced in this. Seemed to have missed most of the others! Just off to re-read the diabetes one, because I didn't think it was that bad.......

DioneTheDiabolist · 12/11/2016 02:50

Witch who said "we will never change our minds"?

WitchOfEorzea · 12/11/2016 03:01

Justine herself DioneTheDiabolist

You obviously hold a different view which is your prerogative. What I'm saying is that we're not really going to change our minds - it's up to you whether you can live with that or not.

Oblomov16 · 12/11/2016 03:23

I have just re-read the diabetes thread quoted. And I think it's unfair that it's linked in to this discussion.

DioneTheDiabolist · 12/11/2016 03:31

Thank you for providing the original quote Witch.Thanks My understanding of it is different from yours. I do not see the never that you do.

MoonlightMedicine · 12/11/2016 06:32
Flowers
TresDesolee · 12/11/2016 07:28

So basically, we all agree that it's mn's site and that they should be able to go about their business without meeting rudeness and hectoring except when it's the particular issue we care about, in which case rudeness and hectoring is justified because our issue is especially important.

Seriously can you not see this? It's toddler behaviour.

Your issue (diabetes, trans, SN) is the most important thing to you but the cumulative effect of this myopia and exceptionalism is endless shit for MNHQ, to the extent that they feel they have to change their approach and draw a line.

I don't think you get to say 'this is all great but I reserve the right to be angry and borderline abusive on my particular issue'. Nobody gets to be abusive whatever the issue is. Disagree, highlight, discuss, but not abuse.

And yes all of those recent threads (SN, diabetes, trans) involved outrageous fucking rudeness to MNHQ. If you can't see that you really do need a new prescription.

Stop making excuses for yourselves and grow up. If your DC behaved this way towards people in RL providing a discretionary service you'd be ashamed of them.

differentnameforthis · 12/11/2016 07:41

if Mumsnet makes you that angry then maybe it's time to accept that it isn't the site for you Agree...I think some posters need to remember that MNHQ aren't keeping them under lock & key, and they are free to leave at any point.

BeyondReasonablyDoubts · 12/11/2016 07:50

The only problem with that. The posters with disabilities themselves or children with them/SN use this place for a support network. One that is not easily available elsewhere. I'd possibly cast this net wide enough to include the posters on the diabetes thread.

The posters on the gender critical side of the trans debate use this place as it is one of the few places on the entire internet that does not delete and ban the entire subject. It is a 'support network' for them too.

If you don't like it bugger off doesn't take these into account and frequently (not always!!) comes from people who are not in these support networks but here for general fun.

PigletWasPoohsFriend · 12/11/2016 07:54

If you don't like it bugger off doesn't take these into account and frequently (not always!!) comes from people who are not in these support networks but here for general fun

It doesn't give people licence to be rude to MNHQ though. Or 'demand' that x or z is done.

That is the issue.

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