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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Mumsnet moderation policy

543 replies

JustineMumsnet · 11/11/2016 15:59

If you've visited Site Stuff in recent times you'll know there's been a fair bit of grousing about our moderation policy. There have been lot of calls from the SN boards in particular but elsewhere too for us to delete many more posts than we are doing at the moment. Equally some on the feminism boards have been particularly angered by the position we've adopted around transphobia.

Those of you who have been around for a bit will also know that some of these debates have been going on a long time.

Mumsnet has always believed - been founded upon - the idea that civilised debate is a broadly positive thing. That we can disagree but agree that people have a right to different opinions. That freedom of speech is in general good and that we'd rather let the conversation flow than censor it. That exposing ourselves to the widest range of arguments and opinions is generally healthier than banishing the ones we don’t like.

Increasingly you'll find that other places on the web will filter out views and information you might not like automatically - Facebook and Google both do this based on the data they have about you (which is a lot). Just take a look at the debate raging in the US right now over whether this kind of tailoring of news – some call it the “filter bubble” effect – was to blame for the election of Donald Trump. Whatever you think of Facebook’s role in sending Trump to the White House, it’s unarguably becoming increasingly hard to watch or read something that hasn't been selected for you.

We've chosen to be public, un-paywalled and welcoming to newbies with different opinions. That means from time to time we may be confronted by views that we think are outlandish and even noxious. Of course - given we're called Mumsnet - we're always going to be a space dominated by women but the only qualification we require of our users is a basic level of civility.

This doesn't mean that it's a complete free for all. Of course we do and will continue to remove posts that break our rules – for instance personal attacks and those that break the law or promote hate. But there are always going to be posts which fall into a grey area - posts that cause offence without intention, perhaps by using words in common use that some believe should be disallowed like “moron” or “idiot”. And our inclination here is to err on the side of free speech rather than censorship.

Many Mumsnetters have told us they've had their minds broadened by posts they've seen on Mumsnet and have become more tolerant and understanding as a result. We do understand it can be frustrating being told that we'd rather host a debate about why something was offensive so folks might change their mind, than delete it. We're mindful of the fact that many of our users are exhausted and often in impossibly difficult situations and would much rather people just understood or piped down - that we just deleted those comments which upset them or banned those who made them. But rightly or wrongly, that's not the Mumsnet we've chosen to be. We've chosen to be open and welcoming to new people and challenging different opinions. We've chosen to be a broad church not a narrow one.

At a time when the rise of intersectional politics often seems to be squeezing the space for public debate, when no-platforming has entered the everyday vocabulary of university campuses and social media reverberates daily to howls of outrage over some linguistic transgression or other, this seems more important than ever.

No-one is pretending that any of this stuff is easy. Rights only really mean anything when they are difficult to protect. And in the case of many of these arguments, we have deep instinctive sympathy with users calling for us to delete posts or ban certain words. We understand how anxious many who’ve battled for women’s rights feel. We understand that language plays an important part in making them feel marginalised and vulnerable. And many of us who have for years read the stirring and humbling posts on the SN boards will instinctively wish to defend parents who feel the casual, thoughtless language used by other posters is making their already hard lives harder still. We would go to the barricades with them in many ways, but not at the expense of a principle which makes Mumsnet what it is.

I think all this is worth stating because, frankly, the aggressive attitude of some Mumsnetters towards the community team in particular needs to stop. It's becoming demoralising and almost impossible to do the job. You couldn't actually hope to meet a nicer, more patient, diligent and selfless crew than the MN community team. Day in day out they do their level best to be fair, decent and consistent. Of course we get things wrong and don't always word things right - who doesn't? - and I know the majority of users know this and I'm really grateful for your support and kind words. The one thing I'm certain of, though, is that decent moderation is a big reason why Mumsnet has thrived and grown over the years.

But there are some users who, from what I've seen, are relentlessly denigrating the team in a way that can really only be described as aggressive heckling. Some of the attacks have been personal and downright nasty. In recent weeks members of the community team have been called ignorant, stupid, rude and not giving a shiny shite. The disabled members of our team have been described as tokens. I personally have been called sneering, supercilious, classist, venal and a hypocrite who’s drowning in the Kool-Aid amongst other things. (Let’s not get into a debate over whether that’s fair…)

The last thing we're saying is that we don't want feedback - we value it hugely, and we will always hold up our hands if we've messed up. (Incidentally almost none of the above critical posts have been deleted.) But, to be frank, if Mumsnet makes you that angry then maybe it's time to accept that it isn't the site for you - you probably need to acknowledge that we simply aren't and never will moderate the way you want us to. After all, we're here to make parents' lives easier and if the way we moderate raising your blood pressure on a daily basis - so much that you're calling the moderators “cunts” - then with the greatest respect I think you need to take a break.

In an increasingly polarised world of trigger warnings and safe spaces, preserving Mumsnet as a place that can host the widest debate in the most civilised fashion seems more important than ever. You’ll have to forgive me if this sounds pompous but this really is about freedom. As so often George Orwell put it best: “If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”

OP posts:
usual · 11/11/2016 20:05

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Albadross · 11/11/2016 20:06

I've followed all the trans threads and never commented. From all I've read it appears like someone who has used words like 'wanker' to refer to others who have genuine questions is then being afforded air time despite this, when - perhaps understandably - people see this as a bit of a double standard. In some ways if we are to tolerate that person's misogyny and offensive remarks, they should also tolerate the anger that then stirs up. Not that it should be tit for tat, but stones and glasshouses come to mind and as women we're all told to shut up almost every day as it is.

I'm a mental health blogger who experiences some absolutely horrific abuse online, and where I feel it has a basis of logic or raises a question I think might be of some value I engage. A lot of what I'm subjected to is misogyny, extremely personal and even some threats of violence, and none of it with any provocation. I show I won't tolerate it by addressing it so others can see. I would've said anything I'd say here both in my blog and in person to whomever I was talking about - it's sort of a rule I have - but it does concern me that tolerance doesn't always nurture debate, sometimes it just keeps others 'in their place' so to speak. You do have to separate the person from their words and acknowledge that if something that seems offensive is not simply being used to inflame, but because it's symptomatic of an argument or core belief, then perhaps it should play out.

For me the difference between PAs on MNHQ/other MNers and a guest like Paris is that we sort of know what sort of a character Paris is from the mass of published material we can easily find. I know nothing of the mods or other posters here in comparison, so I wouldn't have any reason to PA them - I would however point out flaws in things they said as I saw them. I don't resort to name-calling because it would feel like I was admitting to being wrong (blame the ASD).

Justine's point about the 'AI' of SM influencing things like the US election is extremely key here too - and by that I mean that the more we 'tolerate' what can be harmful words or ideas (esp. if harmful to the parents MN is supposed to be supporting, or making their lives easier), the more those harmful words begin to infiltrate and influence everything else we see. Things become normalised.

Spartacus has been pivotal for me and I value the debate immensely; it may seem like a 'vocal minority' but many of us are actually trans-advocates and people who in life fight for the rights of those who are downtrodden.

Albadross · 11/11/2016 20:06

Apologies for the essay!

PigletWasPoohsFriend · 11/11/2016 20:08

That is the point exactly Voyage

NerrSnerr · 11/11/2016 20:10

I'm another who would like to know what a mermaid invasion is?

NavyandWhite · 11/11/2016 20:12

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MistressMerryWeather · 11/11/2016 20:12

Mermaids is a charity aimed at children who have gender identity issues.

Saucery · 11/11/2016 20:12

Mermaids is an organisation supporting families who believe their dc are transgender.

NerrSnerr · 11/11/2016 20:14

Thank you. I did try and google mermaid invasion but all the results were a bit literal (and bonkers).

Amalfimamma · 11/11/2016 20:17

Mermaid invasion of 2016

When the members of Mermaids, a charity "helping" parents of underage children who identify as trans, came on to teach us all a lesson because we'd dared voice an opinion on them and a case the charity was involeved in and cchastised and critiqued by the sitting judge, obviously our opinion was differing from theirs. They were rude, outed posters, insulted others and the work transphobe was used every other sentence.

venusinscorpio · 11/11/2016 20:17

Mermaids is a campaigning organisation for trans children. They are also a go to organisation for schools, diversity training etc. They have recently been involved in a high profile court case awarding custody of a child the mother said was trans to the father as her actions were considered abuse. Mermaids continue to support the mother and have criticised the judgment even though there appears to be little or no evidence the child felt they were trans. This was reported on by the Daily Mail. Mumsnet posters have discussed this and other cases and various people associated with Mermaids have arrived on mumsnet to dispute the negative view of the group. Personal details about a poster known to Mermaids who was posting critically about them on a mumsnet thread were "accidentally" revealed on the thread by someone claiming to have got support from Mermaids.

If it was done deliberately it is called doxxing and it's a common transactivist tactic intended to intimidate people and shut them down.

VincentVL · 11/11/2016 20:18

Mermaids is a self identified 'support group for parents of trans children' that also lobbies for changes in law and policy and gives training and awareness sessions in trans issues.

Recently a court ruled that a mother had coercively transitioned her 4-7 year old boy, to living in stealth as a girl, for her own purposes when said boy was happy being a boy. The boy is now living with his dad. Several professionals had raised concerns but others had gone along with the mum because, the judge suggested, they didnt want to seem transphobic.

Mermaids had been supporting the mum to trans the boy and, rather than assess what they may have got wrong in this case, has kicked up a huge stink about transphobia in the court. Ex members of mermaids came on to mumsnet to talk about the situation and alleged that Mermaids are, and Im paraphrasing here, dodgy as feck.

Mermaids sent a bunch of current members on to mumsnet to sing their praises. At least one of them posted identifying details of one whistleblower and threatened to release more.

Paris Lees has done 'figurehead and role model' type stuff for Mermaids, I think.

Notwhatiexpected · 11/11/2016 20:18

Hi Justine and the team,

I completely agree that the moderators should not be subjected to any abuse.

However, please don't silence the voices of people who criticise the trans propaganda. I have posted about this before and received support which I am very grateful for. Trans isn't one thing. I discovered my husband was an AGP a short while ago. He is at the end of the Trans spectrum which is horribly woman hating (me!) and his dressing is super sexually motivated. He has been abusive. I have been told to suck it up, be understanding, that I am a bigot for not being happy. It's not all like the regular BBC and Channel 4 romanticised versions of this issue.

Mumsnet is pretty much the only place where some people understand the depth and breadth of this hugely complex and fashionable issue.

The moderators shouldn't be abused, but they, just to be polite and fair, shouldn't condone the abuse of us either.
X

VincentVL · 11/11/2016 20:21

sorry, cross posted

venusinscorpio · 11/11/2016 20:22

So glad your view can be heard, notwhat. You deserve a voice.

venusinscorpio · 11/11/2016 20:22

I think 5 of us cross posted Smile

JennyHolzersGhost · 11/11/2016 20:27

Ah ok. Thanks for the explanations, all. That helps explain the pressures that Justine and the mods must have been under recently. What a very, very difficult and stressful situation for all concerned.

VincentVL · 11/11/2016 20:28

its not a vocal minority. If everyone here were to go ask a bunch of random people they know tomorrow if a man can become a woman just by declaring it so, while continuing to present entirely as a man no less, would you really expect the majority not to be incredulous??

The vocal minority in this situation is the trans activists and their flying monkeys. Most people, in most places, and througout most of history, are perfectly capable of identifying the difference between men and women and knowing that one cant magically transform into the other. Most people who go along with it do so out of sympathy for what they imagine is a traumatic medical condition, completely unaware that thinking of trans as a medical condition is itself considered transphobic these days.

OlennasWimple · 11/11/2016 20:33

Voyage - there are literally millions of Americans who would disagree that Donald Trump is a racist, sexist pig, but literally millions who would loudly proclaim that to be the absolute truth. Consensus cannot be the only requirement to be able to call out offensive behaviour. (Heck, there are plenty of Holocaust deniers out there who argue that Hitler was misunderstood, and a vegetarian so he couldn't have been all that bad...)

FoxesSitOnBoxes · 11/11/2016 20:38

This has really made me think!
I was getting very cross about the PL blog fest thing (and, surely, some little bit of you is regretting that decision?) and irritated by what I sometimes felt was over heavy moderation of interesting debate about female penises and all that emperors new clothes stuff but it is only through the debate that mumsnet has enabled that I Really thought about the trans issue and the impact it has on women.
I imagine that this is a hot topic on more specifically feminist websites but Mumsnet must be doing a lot for this issue simply by providing an arena for the debate to happen in full view of a lot of women like me who may never have considered it an issue at all..... even if the moderation can feel cautious at times.
So Flowers MNHQ. It must be a minefield. I can see why this is a tricky one and maybe we should be debating the real issues around this and putting up with a bit of cautious moderation rather than getting distracted by the moderation?
(

TiggyD · 11/11/2016 20:39

Minefields won't stop a mermaid invasion.

WorraLiberty · 11/11/2016 20:40

I may be wrong but worra posted re people attacking mnhq on FWR

It wasn't me, Beyond Shock Grin

I very rarely wander into FWR.

BathshebaDarkstone · 11/11/2016 20:47

WTF have I missed? And what's Spartacus?

Amalfimamma · 11/11/2016 20:48

Minefields won't stop a mermaid invasion

piranhas might Grin

BathshebaDarkstone · 11/11/2016 20:49

WTF have I missed? And what's Spartacus? Confused