Thoughts on MNHQ's response to the Spartacus thread

[OlennasWimple]

As the Spartacus thread is about to reach capacity, here's a new thread to discuss MNHQ's response to the issues raised on that thread and in a few other places over the last week or so.

is lesphobic to insist that a lesbian likes penis. Feck off with that shite.
Add message | Report | Message poster KateMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 30-Aug-16 21:08:00
Hello all

Thanks for all your input on this - we've been listening and thinking hard.

Couple of quick points to clear up: it's actually not the case that people have been banned solely for misgendering - it will have been part of a broader discussion here about whether that poster is able to stick to the rules generally.

We must admit to being slightly taken aback at being cast, by some, as the evil slave-baiting Roman republic in this grin - as lots of you have pointed out, Mumsnet remains one of the few places where these issues can be discussed at all. It would have been much, much easier (both in terms of the resource and the toll on our moderators' sanity!) to shut down the debate as others have done, but instead we are working hard to find a realistic balance between free speech and being a space which welcomes everyone.

From our perspective, the whole issue is pretty much covered by our Talk Guidelines. If people are using sex-at-birth pronouns to provoke, inflame, or belittle, then that's against the rules and will usually have to go. If it happens as part of an otherwise broadly respectful (even if heated) discussion, we look at it in that context and take a view.

Some of you have pointed out a disjunct between allowing posts which mirror mainstream scientific thinking, while asking MNers not to describe a trans woman as 'he'. We can see your point on this,and also accept that there is a fair amount of dodgy stuff on the trans side that can rightly be described as anti-feminist and regressive - but what we'd ask you to think about is the impact on the parent who's not an activist, and likely isn't even posting, but whose adult child is transitioning, or who is doing so themselves. Would they feel belittled, mocked or attacked? Would they think Mumsnet was not for them? If so, we're going to have to remove it. It's a fudge, but it's the best we can do at this stage.

In all but the most extreme headline-grabbing cases, we do think it's possible to debate the core principles without referring to individuals in a way which will cause hurt. Most of you have said that when talking to a trans person face-to-face you wouldn't insist on using birth pronouns or names - and generally, on this and other issues, we encourage people to treat others with the same courtesy they'd use in real life. For every MNer who posts on a thread there are likely to be ten who are lurking - statistically, some of those will be trans or love someone who is, and we need to take account of them too.

We hope that makes our thinking a bit clearer overall. Do continue to tell us your thoughts - it's probably unrealistic to think that this issue will be quickly resolved here or across society as a whole, but it would be brilliant if MN could be part of the solution, we think.

MNHQ

^ Please link to or quote where Ego has insulted anyone. Actual words.
Am reporting. You think saying someone is acting like a cunt is okay?
She did not demand incidentally. She made a reasonable request for the response that MN themselves had said they would be making to go up separately. The OP of the Sparticus thread agreed that that request was reasonable. A response on a separate thread at a reasonable time with MNHQ available to engage would have been preferable.

I'm not sure it is about transsexualism tbh. I think that's quite separate to men who decide they are a woman because they feel the gender stereotypes we're lumbered with suit them better than the ones that came with their penis.

And I'm really not convinced that the interests of those who want to be able to insist that women have penises too align with those of people who feel like their physical bodies are wrong. But it's the former than seem to control contemporary debate.

And I'm really not convinced that the interests of those who want to be able to insist that women have penises too align with those of people who feel like their physical bodies are wrong.

Yes, I definitely agree with this. The majority of 'women with penises' are simply...crossdressers who do not wish to have that title. IMO obviously...

KimmySchmidtsSmile Wed 31-Aug-16 01:07:35
" Please link to or quote where Ego has insulted anyone. Actual words.
Am reporting. You think saying someone is acting like a cunt is okay?"

That is not what was said, just to be clear. If that's how you read that post, re-read it. "And to all." The entire post is not aimed at a single person.

IT IS NOT ALL ABOUT EGO!

If that response took several days to formulate, I'd hate to see a kneejerk response.

Not good enough at all.

".....there is a fair amount of dodgy stuff on the trans side that can rightly be described as anti-WOMAN and regressive...."

Fixed that for you HQ........

I assume the several days were spent trying to find a way to follow the ridiculous trans-agenda while placating us all. That reply probably had several edits to make it seem they agree with the (huge...almost unanimous) majority while obviously disagreeing.

It kinda failed.

Hi Tantannubuck

Flat Earth Society!

I just can't see why a few men get to dictate to all women, uh, unless I think about male supremacy, and then it all makes sense.

If we're worried about potential or current parents, I think honesty is still the best policy.

Your male child is male. Your female child is female.

I don't see the problem. I truly don't. The only problem I see is a few men getting enraged that nobody is coddling their autogynephilic feelz and then they go running to HQ having a mantrum.

I say, too bad. Reality doesn't change because you want it to. The adults are speaking.

In all but the most extreme headline-grabbing cases, we do think it's possible to debate the core principles without referring to individuals in a way which will cause hurt.

Now I have chilled slightly too, I can respond to this part without breaking my keyboard. 'A way which will cause hurt' appears to be..pointing out biology or refusing to fall into line and agree that trans people should be at the very top of the agenda for everything, including feminism. Well..I kinda think the trans movement (as it stands now) and feminism cannot realistically co-exist. Some people were hurt by users labelling Ada Wells he. So this part of the explanation, is as clear as mud.

Fuck it and just ban the whole topic MNHQ. All these TAATs and responses to responses. It's twisting my melon man!

Or

Start a Trans Section so I can fucking hide it.

I suspect the disproportionate number of MtF transitions will be related to the fact that in our stupid patriarchal society the gender rules for men are still stupidly rigid

StepAwayFromTheThesaurus

I think you are getting somewhere with this. I remember when my dd was young, in Dublin in the 90s, there were so many after-school activities forbidden to boys by their fathers who felt that the activities were too effeminate. Very few boys got to take Irish dancing classes, even though traditionally it has been for men and women. At the time girls were getting into football, rugby and karate and I could see the day that the macho fathers would not allow their boys to do these sports, because of the association with girls.

So sad to think that probably some of those poor wee boys have grown up mutilate themselves in the effort to have the fun that girls have, but it still does not make them women.

As for mumsnet worrying about the sensitivity of the mothers of transitioning children, considering all of the media is falling over itself to say that it is cool to transition, I think it could be life-saving for those mothers to read another point of view.

Would someone link Spartacus thread pls?

Who is Ada Wells? I can only find a New Zealand women with that name.

"Who is Ada Wells? I can only find a New Zealand women with that name."

Poor Ada Wells.
You need to look for Ada J Wells + Edinburgh university if you want to find out who is being referred to :)

Atenco that still makes it a MH issue. Especially around shame and subsequent anxiety.

As parents we should do what can to eradicate shame for these boys. That includes telling them they are no less male even if they like pink or dresses or make up or knitting or whatever perceived feminine hobby.

But again this is why feminism not the trans agenda is so so much more impprtant and why preserving and improving women's rights needs to continue. Only then will we see more flexibility in the masculine rules that seem so impenetrable to a man who feels trans/ more feminine.

As pointed out women have navigated this for years and have just got on with it. Fighting where necessary. Challenging gende stereotypes. Adopting these things amongst a lot of criticism. wear trousers you won't find a man, go into X job they'll think you're a lesbian etc etc but we've done it. We still do it.

Men could and should do the same.
They are in a position of power so why not make the change?

It's also interesting gay men have somewhat succeeded in this too. yes o am well aware of many homophobic attacks that still happen Some do express femininity in a healthier manner ( as opposed to surgery and long term hormone usage that can leave negative effects and lead to suicide) how did they manage it? What can we learn from it? How can we, as parents and women, apply this to our husbands, uncles, nephews and sons?

There are so many questions but surgery, colonising the safe spaces for women and oppressing women further is just going to turn trans people into a subclass 'male but not' that is already very busibly exacerbating the problem and giving men even more rights over women and their spaces.

SoHairy
I suggest you take your own advice and reread Amalfimamma's post.
I think you'll find she dragged Ego back into it. If it's not all about Ego, and it clearly isn't, leave her out of it. There was only ONE thread with that request so talking about Someone, (ooh who could that be then?), then denouncing them as a special snowflake is still slagging someone off.
And bringing them back into it.
As for the "and to all" caveat, now there's arse-covering right there. The only person on here who has been accused of late of demanding answers/not replying (when she has engaged for many years), derailing and crying victim (charming phrase that one) is Ego. Why? Because she is a trans woman.

I am a cis woman. I won't use it to describe others if you don't like it, but it's how I describe myself. I like that it's a short succinct word that clearly describes myself when I'm discussing trans issues with others.

It's unnecessary, though. You are a woman and transwomen are transwomen. That's the only distinction necessary. They are not and can never be the same.

I appreciate that MNHQ allow discussion on the site about this issue because it gets shut down elsewhere. I think we should aim to stay within the guidelines so the topic is aired and discussed freely and with time maybe discussion will be allowed elsewhere. Let us be the thin end of the wedge in the fight back to reclaim women's rights.

We older women dropped the ball on this one. I'm old and had let my feminism lapse and happily settled into wishy washy liberal middle age, happy to pass on the baton of women's rights to the next generation. I shouldn't have.

I don't want to cause hurt to transwomen but, frankly, some of them don't give a fuck about causing pain to women so why should I be passive about it? I don't know any transwomen personally but I do have lesbian friends who are very disturbed about this issue. I stand with my lesbian sisters who do not want sex with "female penis" wielding men. I stand by their right to say no without being called names.

I stand by women's right to female only spaces.

I won't deliberately misgender transwomen members on MN. I will be polite and use their chosen pronouns. But those in the public eye who use hate speech against women do not deserve that courtesy. I will call a prick a prick.

I forgot to add.

I am still Spatacus.

I came across this when researching trans issues.

This is still male violence. terfisaslur.com/

i am a cis woman. I won't use it to describe others if you don't like it, but it's how I describe myself. I like that it's a short succinct word that clearly describes myself when I'm discussing trans issues with others.

If brevity is is your thing, then just 'woman' works for me and significantly most other people. 'Trans women' are not women.

Apparently talking about 'womanly problems' and periods is wrong.

I don't want to live in a world where my safe female spaces mean I cannot comfortably talk about my female problems because someone might claim for it to be triggering

Will mumsnet become like this? Where we can't talk about post birth bleeding, leaking nipples, abortion, cervical cancer, ovarian cancer, vulvas, vaginas, PCOS, endometriosis, IBS that is really affected by our oestrogen levels rising and falling, pre menstural migraines all because it might be triggering to a MtF trans person?

Seriously this... It's extreme and it's diminishing my female identity to nothing more than feelings.

There won't be any mumsnet if that happened. Who the fuck would want to use it? That's why MNHQ need to take a sensible approach to this.

I really hope it doesn't happen. My discussion on other forums has been shut down Before. When I asked about a similar thing. I haven't been back to them because I was silenced on an issue that affects my body.

"free speech as long as no one is offended is no free speech at all..."

^ This.