Thoughts on MNHQ's response to the Spartacus thread

[OlennasWimple]

As the Spartacus thread is about to reach capacity, here's a new thread to discuss MNHQ's response to the issues raised on that thread and in a few other places over the last week or so.

is lesphobic to insist that a lesbian likes penis. Feck off with that shite.
Add message | Report | Message poster KateMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 30-Aug-16 21:08:00
Hello all

Thanks for all your input on this - we've been listening and thinking hard.

Couple of quick points to clear up: it's actually not the case that people have been banned solely for misgendering - it will have been part of a broader discussion here about whether that poster is able to stick to the rules generally.

We must admit to being slightly taken aback at being cast, by some, as the evil slave-baiting Roman republic in this grin - as lots of you have pointed out, Mumsnet remains one of the few places where these issues can be discussed at all. It would have been much, much easier (both in terms of the resource and the toll on our moderators' sanity!) to shut down the debate as others have done, but instead we are working hard to find a realistic balance between free speech and being a space which welcomes everyone.

From our perspective, the whole issue is pretty much covered by our Talk Guidelines. If people are using sex-at-birth pronouns to provoke, inflame, or belittle, then that's against the rules and will usually have to go. If it happens as part of an otherwise broadly respectful (even if heated) discussion, we look at it in that context and take a view.

Some of you have pointed out a disjunct between allowing posts which mirror mainstream scientific thinking, while asking MNers not to describe a trans woman as 'he'. We can see your point on this,and also accept that there is a fair amount of dodgy stuff on the trans side that can rightly be described as anti-feminist and regressive - but what we'd ask you to think about is the impact on the parent who's not an activist, and likely isn't even posting, but whose adult child is transitioning, or who is doing so themselves. Would they feel belittled, mocked or attacked? Would they think Mumsnet was not for them? If so, we're going to have to remove it. It's a fudge, but it's the best we can do at this stage.

In all but the most extreme headline-grabbing cases, we do think it's possible to debate the core principles without referring to individuals in a way which will cause hurt. Most of you have said that when talking to a trans person face-to-face you wouldn't insist on using birth pronouns or names - and generally, on this and other issues, we encourage people to treat others with the same courtesy they'd use in real life. For every MNer who posts on a thread there are likely to be ten who are lurking - statistically, some of those will be trans or love someone who is, and we need to take account of them too.

We hope that makes our thinking a bit clearer overall. Do continue to tell us your thoughts - it's probably unrealistic to think that this issue will be quickly resolved here or across society as a whole, but it would be brilliant if MN could be part of the solution, we think.

MNHQ

No, I know it happens on other forums. But mumsnet will not be able to shut down discussion of female sexuality, conception, pregnancy and birth and periods and the menopause and survive. They need to bear that in mind when considering their social responsibility.

I'm absolutely horrified by this thread and the Spartacus one. I never realised trans people had so much hatred towards them. I also didn't realise how many radical feminists are on mumsnet.

I'm very grateful to RadFems for the early work they did in the women's rights movement. However the train of thought on trans people is trans exclusionary, and this entire thread has been fixated on MTT, which tells me the whole argument is based on prejudicism against MTT without looking at both MTT and FTT.

Let's unpack this a bit. What are you "horrified" about exactly?

And you're being deeply disingenuous that this is the first time you've come across gender critical (not necessarily radical feminist, stop trying to shift the Overton window and marginalise these very common opinions) views on mumsnet before. I seem to remember a recent thread you were also clutching your pearls on.

However the train of thought on trans people is trans exclusionary, and this entire thread has been fixated on MTT, which tells me the whole argument is based on prejudicism against MTT without looking at both MTT and FTT.

Maybe that's because FTT don't disrespect women?

If MTT people try to "other" women they have got a fight on their hands. For centuries men have silenced women and we finally began to fight back in the 20th. We will not be silenced by men again. We will not yield our hard fought for rights. Male privilege will not prevail.

I don't hate transwomen but I sure as hell hate what some of them are doing and saying. They are the ones filled with hatred of women, they are the ones saying penises are female and trying to force themselves on lesbians and demanding access to our safe spaces.

Those transwomen can fuck right off.

I sure as hell hate many actions of some sects of society, however that doesn't make it OK to actively discriminate against them! Imagine if you had said (for example, this is not my personal view but have heard others say it!) "I hate Gypsies because they litter everywhere, they need to fuck of!" That would absolutely not be acceptable because it is a protected characteristic. As is trans. If you have any doubt whether what you are saying is discriminative or not, just replace the word trans with another sect. Then you will see how utterly vile some of these views are...

Who has said "I hate trans people because they all do x so they need to fuck off"? Please indicate where.

Mnhq - look, please please please stay as a place where women can discuss this sort of thing openly.

Let's take the dreaded 'cis'. It has a proper meaning in genetics, a cis element is one that acts on a gene physically close to it.

It is NOT an acceptable term to use to describe women. It's as offensive as the n word. No matter if 'some black people use the word n*gger to describe themselves' - as a white female I would never, ever use the word out loud. Even typing it makes me feel queasy. It's deeply offensive.
When the word cis is used it places the male at the centre, it says 'I'm the benchmark you measure everything against.' I don't know a single woman who would use it to describe herself. It's a very offensive word.

sex is a biological reality - I say that as a scientist. It's detatched from value judgement, it just IS.
Gender on the other hand is a social construct that is hugely damaging to both men and women and contains thousands of years of cultural baggage.
Its gender that we need to be deconstructing, not biological sex. The whole 'I feel like a woman' argument falls down when you prove it, why do you feel like a woman? You think like a woman? How does a woman think? Don't you see that's offensive? And wrong? There is no fucking lady brain!
When you examine that you realise it's all down to dodgy assumptions on how women feel, or think, or dress, or walk, and all those things are what society has concocted over the years. They are not objective realities. They are cultural baggage. Let's get rid of that, so that men aren't mocked for wanting to be nursery nurses, and women aren't considered to be weak little flowers incapable of arc welding, brain surgery or truck driving.
Biological sex is an objective reality.

MNHQ I think you need to reconsider your response:

The word cis doesn't need to be banned but must be seen for what it is - an offensive, male dominant, othering term
The pointing out of objective facts (that biological sex cannot be changed) must not be censored
Hate speech or incitement of hatred against trans people AND women is equally unacceptable.

Mn needs to remain a place where women can openly and honestly discuss issues that affect us without hectoring from transwomen, or the dreaded 'triggering/offense' nonsense. If we are curtailed and censored then users will desert the site in droves and there's your advertising revenue down the swanny.

Clutching my pearls? Bore off please. I just think all humans should be treated equally regardless of what they decide to label themselves as! And yes I have heard "gender critical", although most with these views don't shy away from the fact they are RadFems...

I think you'll find the use of the word "some" ensures it is not discriminative.

I hate the way "some" travellers left a mess that cost £250,000 to clear up on a local school field. That doesn't mean I hate all travellers.

"that doesn't make it OK to actively discriminate against them!"

Who is discriminating against trans people on MN? Is there a job opening for which one of us has refused to consider a transwoman, for example?

"If you have any doubt whether what you are saying is discriminative or not, just replace the word trans with another sect."

1. That is not what "discrimination" means.

1. Is it a Freudian slip that you called trans a "sect" or just another word you use without understanding its meaning?

I hate Gypsies because they litter everywhere, they need to fuck of!"

This statement is wrong because it conflates the actions of a few to an entire group.
The problem for free speech then comes when someone says 'travellers have parked on our playing field and are wrecking it' and people trot out the 'racist!' Line.

In the first statement, an entire group is slandered based on hearsay/prejudice etc. In the second statement, some individuals are accused based on objective evidence. It is impossible to say "all gypsies are..." But it is possible to say "hey these twenty people are messing up our playing field."

So applying this to transwomen:

"All transwomen can fuck off ... Blah blah.." Is hate speech. It's wrong.
"[specific person or persons] say that lesbians need to be forced to have sex with their female penises" Is an objective,verifiable statement. It cannot and must not be shut down.

Moderators tread a fine line, but there's a huge gulf between blanket statements of hatred and discussion of a specific issue.

Don't fail us mnhq.

2. Is it a Freudian slip that you called trans a "sect" or just another word you use without understanding its meaning?

Come on, you must understand what sect means in this context. It's common language used to describe different groups of society. Look at the third definition of any dictionary!

Cote you seem to be having difficulties with the English language this morning.

Look at the third definition of any dictionary!

"A subdivision of one of the main religious divisions of mankind"

That's horrifying twatbadging - thank you for sharing.

but what we'd ask you to think about is the impact on the parent who's not an activist, and likely isn't even posting, but whose adult child is transitioning, or who is doing so themselves. Would they feel belittled, mocked or attacked? Would they think Mumsnet was not for them? If so, we're going to have to remove it. It's a fudge, but it's the best we can do at this stage.

This is pathetic. Sorry.

What we'd ask you MNHQ to think about is the impact on the parent who's not an activist, and likely isn't even posting, but who is trying to raise daughters and sons without sexism. Who don't want their daughters and sons to be asked to accept, whilst at an impressionable age, that women behave and dress in THIS way and men behave and dress in THAT way so if you want to behave and dress in THIS way YOU MUST BE A WOMAN. That is bullshit.

Who don't want their sons to think that if they like ballet or a skirt they have to be a girl and can't be a boy. That is bullshit.

Who don't want their daughters to have to accept, whilst they are too young to have the confidence to object or remove themselves from the situation, but may be too old to be always with a parent while shopping, swimming etc, sharing communal changing spaces with adult people who have XY chromosomes and a penis and other attitudes of male biology. That is bullshit.

Who don't want their daughters (if they are lesbian) to be insulted, accused and excluded from resources and spaces that are supposed to support them, for not accepting the notion that some penises are female and they should be OK with sexual encounters with a penis. That is bullshit.

We are regularly feeling belittled, mocked and attacked by the TRA agenda that is shutting down women's rights to be women. Your response reproduced in the opening post of this thread is starting to make us think that Mumsnet is not for us. That is bullshit.

People have the right to wear what they like, behave in ways that are traditionally seen as "masculine" or "feminine" regardless of their biological sex. We can be supportive to anyone who needs support in these things whether relating to their own identity or that of their child. It is not OK to add to this a requirement that we must redefine OURSELVES in order to not cause someone else offense or upset.

And I'll say it again, Fruitcider. Stop trying to (disingenuously) marginalise perfectly sensible and common opinions. Not all people who oppose some of the things which are the reason for all these threads consider themselves radical feminists. It's extremely arrogant to label them as such if that is the only opinion they share with radical feminists. "Gender critical" is a perfectly reasonable description of these views. But I can see why it suits you to ignore that.

Very well put ....Applauds cexuwaleozbu

Gender critical is a pseudonym for a particular type of radical feminist. One that rhymes smurf, which apparently I'm not allowed to use as its derogatory. Go figure.

The posts on this thread and the others are by and large not saying we shouldn't employ trans people or that trans people should not be utterly free to live their lives as they want to. What the majority of posts are saying is that trans people should be free to live how they want but that they are not the opposite sex and where there are safe spaces or positive discrimination in favour of that opposite sex then the trans person probably should not be entitled to access it.

This is particularly relevant in the case of women and trans women because women experience sexist oppression and violence, experience workplace prejudice and so on. Say you have a large company who has identifies that they have issues with the make up of their board - too many white able bodied men - and decide they need to actively encourage and support women and ethnic minorities within their organisation to rebalance and be more inclusive. Now. One of the board declares themselves to be a woman. Has the proportion of women on the board increased? Has the company become better at nurturing the talents of the women in their ranks? No.

Rachel Dolezal was pilloried for identifying as a black woman. I've lost count of the number of times I've seen threads on mumsnet claiming x y or z is cultural appropriation and white people shouldn't do it, up to and including wearing braids, because as a class white people oppress other cultures. So why is it OK for a male to appropriate my oppressed sex and take the opportunities and safe spaces that women have fought for.

Gender is biologically rooted bullshit imo, but women experience sexism because of our biology too. Trans people undoubtedly experience prejudice but it is not the same prejudice as women.

Don't feel yourself obliged not to use it on my account. I'd rather you showed your true colours. It's quite clear what kind of person would want to use that term.

No "figuring" needed.

KimmySchmidtsSmile

It's isn't all about ego, even though her name would suggest otherwise. You say she's transgender. I didn't know that nor do I find it important it has no bearing on how I behave towArds you.

What does get my goat is all this rattle throwing out of the pram just because we, women, are standing up for women's right. On a women's discussion board. How dare We!

Oh and kimmy. If you demand answers, complain about not being allowed to debate a post and then banning debate on your own post you are being a special snowflake. It doesn't matter if you want to be called he or she.

fruit, I have pointed out before, if someone starts a "I believe in gender and the lady brain and all you TERFs are wrong" thread in support of the TRAs, I will not hijack it.
Yet no such thread exists. I wonder why.