Thoughts on MNHQ's response to the Spartacus thread

[OlennasWimple]

As the Spartacus thread is about to reach capacity, here's a new thread to discuss MNHQ's response to the issues raised on that thread and in a few other places over the last week or so.

is lesphobic to insist that a lesbian likes penis. Feck off with that shite.
Add message | Report | Message poster KateMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 30-Aug-16 21:08:00
Hello all

Thanks for all your input on this - we've been listening and thinking hard.

Couple of quick points to clear up: it's actually not the case that people have been banned solely for misgendering - it will have been part of a broader discussion here about whether that poster is able to stick to the rules generally.

We must admit to being slightly taken aback at being cast, by some, as the evil slave-baiting Roman republic in this grin - as lots of you have pointed out, Mumsnet remains one of the few places where these issues can be discussed at all. It would have been much, much easier (both in terms of the resource and the toll on our moderators' sanity!) to shut down the debate as others have done, but instead we are working hard to find a realistic balance between free speech and being a space which welcomes everyone.

From our perspective, the whole issue is pretty much covered by our Talk Guidelines. If people are using sex-at-birth pronouns to provoke, inflame, or belittle, then that's against the rules and will usually have to go. If it happens as part of an otherwise broadly respectful (even if heated) discussion, we look at it in that context and take a view.

Some of you have pointed out a disjunct between allowing posts which mirror mainstream scientific thinking, while asking MNers not to describe a trans woman as 'he'. We can see your point on this,and also accept that there is a fair amount of dodgy stuff on the trans side that can rightly be described as anti-feminist and regressive - but what we'd ask you to think about is the impact on the parent who's not an activist, and likely isn't even posting, but whose adult child is transitioning, or who is doing so themselves. Would they feel belittled, mocked or attacked? Would they think Mumsnet was not for them? If so, we're going to have to remove it. It's a fudge, but it's the best we can do at this stage.

In all but the most extreme headline-grabbing cases, we do think it's possible to debate the core principles without referring to individuals in a way which will cause hurt. Most of you have said that when talking to a trans person face-to-face you wouldn't insist on using birth pronouns or names - and generally, on this and other issues, we encourage people to treat others with the same courtesy they'd use in real life. For every MNer who posts on a thread there are likely to be ten who are lurking - statistically, some of those will be trans or love someone who is, and we need to take account of them too.

We hope that makes our thinking a bit clearer overall. Do continue to tell us your thoughts - it's probably unrealistic to think that this issue will be quickly resolved here or across society as a whole, but it would be brilliant if MN could be part of the solution, we think.

MNHQ

I wonder how many women would feel absolutely comfortable using unisex loos or having a male bodied person in the next stall or standing at the sinks as the woman enters. I honestly think i'd feel uncomfortable though i might get used to it. I feel a bit off when i've walked into a public loo and ther's a male cleaner or man.

Changing rooms would obviously be even worse, also US loos which have fairly bug gaps round the doors and short stall walls.

Memories Yes, I know. But I do think that there has to be some way of keeping women safe without risking harm to genuine tw in early transition (or any stage actually). If a child is tw then, at school for instance, everyone knows. I imagine most children are OK with it - I know it was no big deal at dd's secondary, it was a minority of parents who were up in arms. OTOH, there was tm transitioning and he had to use the girls' rooms. I can understand that that's more to do with safeguarding him from male violence, but it's a different problem.

Is that true about the non trans kids being ok with it? Does the feelings and concerns of those who have spoken up not matter? I imagine there could be pressure to be cool and not be an awful bigot and that some kids feel they can't speak up.

Indeed bambini

I Remeber one incident in school. Completely unrelated to this but it fits with heard mentality teens and pre teens have.

Someone had something stolen in a changing room. Somehow someone gave permission for two girls to search bags without a teacher to find the lost/stolen item. Everyone agrees to this even though they were readily letting people invade their personal space.

I flat out refused to let anyone other than a teacher search my bag and I was then accused of stealing all the other girls weren't labelled as such and even after the item was found - still in the changing room - I was still the 'theif'.

Kids are afraid of not conforming so will go along with the Majority for fear of standing out and being labelled.

I'm stubborn as fuck and stand by my principles, even as a 12yo. Most aren't and will suffer through discomfort than be seen as different.

I don't know. There was one f to m child, and no one was worried about him, because the girls all knew him well. But there were some v rough lads there who would not have allowed this boy to escape unscathed of he's tried to use the boys' loos and changing rooms. The m to f child was also well known, and there were some parents who kicked up a bit of a stink though I understand from dd that these were parents of unaffected children (what exactly that means, I don't know). DD herself wasn't bothered one way or the other, just felt that people living in such misery as these two were need as much kindness and tolerance as you can manage. She'd known both children for some years.

Of course I see the irony of the attitude to male violence. We are actually very happy that dd has left that school now.

Memoires regarding the tw at your dd's secondary school, you say it was only "a minority of parents who were up in arms."

Oh, so that's ok. Except it's not. Because one pubescent girl having to change in front of a boy is one too many. And I'd guess there were a lot of unhappy parents who said nothing. When they see trans kids being praised as "brave" and "inspirational" parents who want to be seen as open-minded are nervous about speaking up. Girls at that age have a hard enough time coping with periods and other changes without having a flippin' boy in there with them. For girls from some backgrounds it would make school impossible.

What you call a "genuine tw" is just as likely to attack women as any other male. Most men wouldn't hurt a fly but we keep sex-segregated spaces because it's they who are responsible for nearly all violent and sex crimes and we can't tell safe tws/men from dangerous ones. You may not mind tws in loos or showers, but you're not the only one whose opinion matters.

There was one f to m child, and no one was worried about him, because the girls all knew him well. he was still a female. With a female body and female issues like periods and having a FtM in womens facilities is not an issue. They don't have a penis for starters, nor the strength of a man. The threat of rape & assault is low. The girls will also feel at ease.

But there were some v rough lads there who would not have allowed this boy to escape unscathed of he's tried to use the boys' loos and changing rooms. this is why females should remain in female spaces. Even presenting as male this child is still treated as female.

The m to f child was also well known I could list lots of well known men who have hidden their dark sides. Women would still not be safe regardless of how well known. If fact a well known male is probably more riskier to us women because we know them and our usual defences are down

and there were some parents who kicked up a bit of a stink though I understand from dd that these were parents of unaffected children (what exactly that means, I don't know)

Obviously these are parents who don't have female children in that changing room but they are also...
Parents who are worried of the knock on effect. Will this become common policy across all year groups?
Parents with religious back grounds. Will I be able to send my DD to school when males could be in her changing room?
Parents like many of us on here who are wondering wtf is going on with kids being allowed to transition so young and why are they not being helped.

There are more reasons of course and a parent absolutely has a right to complain about the risks to their child. They are still kids after all.

So the upshot was that boys used the boys' changing room and girls' changing room became the 'non boys' room?

men and non-men. the nasty boys were probably vile to both the mtt and the ftt children, and the girls were expected to be nice and accommodate everyone who didn't fit the boys' space.

over the past view months these threads have completely opened my eyes and left me in no doubt whatsoever where I stand on the issues. I didn't have much of an idea of it affecting me personally though. Today I was surprised to see an obviously male person in the loo at work. I found out from a colleague that they are transitioning and have just started presenting as a female. A quick Google seems to indicate that they cannot be asked to use the unisex accessible loos and that any objection from the women in the office would be discriminatory. I'm planning to ask HR tomorrow why we weren't at least given a heads up, but honestly do we just have to suck it up? Sorry if it's inappropriate to use this thread to ask, I was trying not to start yet another on the subject.

Charlie, if I were you I'd start using the mens loos and tell any woman who has an issue with this to do the same. You can all claim to be transitioning and make sure you have a good old gawp at any loose willies while you're in there. Maybe if the men start feeling uncomfortable in their own space something will be done about it?

See, i can't get that a man has no problem putting his female colleagues in this position without even knowing how they feel about it. Are they just so clueless or arrogant? It just shows they have no care or respect for women.

You have to wonder how many of them would put up with one of us deciding to go in theirs and gawp at their cocks don't you. It just wouldn't happen though. I've been really questioning myself today, am I being mean, Im not afraid of them, but I'm raging. How fucking dare they just ignore our feelings, our dignity. It was very obvious they were using the toilet as a man would, so I guess we'll need to watch out for the seat being left up or pissed on, and splashing!

Don't question yourself - that guy isn't questioning himself is he? I agree with feed me, go into the men's.

After all HR are not allowed to question or challenge are they? It would be discriminatory.

Question or challenge YOUR assertion of being dry, I mean.

Jesus. Dry =ftt. I give up.

With all these children saying the boys changing room isn't safe you would think that problem would be of the highest priority. Nope.
The most recent report from the girls changing room is that the girls do not like the behavior of the transgirl the school requires them to strip in front of. They feel that the boy who identifies as a girl flashing them with his penis and grinding his penis on them is inappropriate. I'm sure the adults are all quite shocked.

I think you need to go to hr and complain in the strongest possible terms about them putting you in a position where you might have thought there was a man in the loos. Your feelings don't matter of course as you are women but you might have made the poor transwoman uncomfortable by assuming he was a man and that would never have done.
Absolutely no point in your using the mens - like fuck will you get treated equally on this one. We have already seen that when transmen commit crimes they are reported as women.
You then need to make sure you tell HR if there are any cases of the toilets not being treated as women treat them. If there is wee on the seats demand extra cleaning.

Apologies if these articles have been posted before but I was shocked to read Maria Miller's response to feminist criticism of proposed legal changes
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/maria-miller-says-only-hostility-to-transgender-report-came-from-women-purporting-to-be-feminists-a6830406.html

This is an excellent article in response

stephaniedaviesarai.com/cwc/maria-millers-report-puts-feminists-in-an-impossible-position/

Can anyone advise as to the stage of the committee. When will a white paper be produced?

Thanks for that :) no idea when but isn't is scary how sex and gender are being so confused.

My husband is going a bit hysterical over this matter..apparently there was a discussion on a show called 'the wright stuff' about loos/changing room s and such and schools. This appears to have woken him up on the matter as before it was quite 'yes dear' when I was ranting about it. We have just had a really long talk about it all whilst kids are at school..and basically he sees the whole trans-movement as blokes trying to get one over on women. Blokes suddenly being 'more oppressed' and such and he says over his dead body will our children be going to a school that thinks it is ok to shove a few guys into the girls changing room. With no prompting from me he came to the 'we don't treat anorexia by giving out liposcution' type view also. He says he thought I was just being OTT over some random crap on the internet but now he is just as worried as me about where this seems to be heading and made me promise that if new laws and such get passed that would mean our daughter would be subjected to having to deal with lads around her while she showers and changes and such, I will home school her. He does not have such reservations about our son as he says no girl would want to be in the boys changing room anyway (odd how we never hear arguments from transmen wanting this, only ever vice versa) and if she was, its not a threat in the same way. But if he did feel uncomfortable with it, I have to homeschool him also.

I agreed. As this batshit crazy view of anyone is whatever they say they are is not going to put my kids at risk, or even make them feel uncomfortable.

He is also quite worried about what this will mean for his job. He also came out with something I had never considered before (possibly because of his job..he does security, often in clubs). Does this mean male on female violence will be trivialized by the guy saying he is a woman in his head..and such. Yes its bad for two women to fight, but its seen as a lot more serious when its a bloke and a woman being physical.

He is also quite worried about what this will mean for his job. He often works security on doors in pubs/clubs and he is worried that removing a bloke who 'is a woman' could potentially get him into trouble.

(Missed out this part somehow)

Did he say what the tone of the debate was on the Wright stuff?

I think when it starts to hit home to people it's a real shock, not just 'stuff on the internet'. I think my DH was the same until I came home yesterday and told him about the bloke in the next loo standing and pissing like a racehorse. I think a lot of people, men and women don't see it as a 'real thing'.

Apparently Matthew Wright was vehemently against it all. I didn't see the show myself mind. He says the majority of phone ins were shocked and against also.

My reply to this was, I bet the show is pulled now as the ofcom complaints will be astronomical if anything except the 'acceptable' line was spoken.

apparently there was a discussion on a show called 'the wright stuff' about loos/changing room s and such and schools I watched that. This is mainstream now. The accepted idea on the programme was that transgender women should go into women's loos. There is a transgender woman in the audience everyday. She said she was encouraged to go into women's loos by a group of women. Everyone sighed with approval. A caller with a 5/6 year old transgender boy was sympathised with. The child was worried about going into the boys' loos so therefore all loos should be unisex.

I watched that. This is mainstream now. The accepted idea on the programme was that transgender women should go into women's loos. There is a transgender woman in the audience everyday. She said she was encouraged to go into women's loos by a group of women. Everyone sighed with approval. A caller with a 5/6 year old transgender boy was sympathised with. The child was worried about going into the boys' loos so therefore all loos should be unisex.

Damn it..I hoped DHs version was right and this might just be the start of people standing up against it. Wonder how he got the tone so wrong in this case then :S