Thoughts on MNHQ's response to the Spartacus thread

[OlennasWimple]

As the Spartacus thread is about to reach capacity, here's a new thread to discuss MNHQ's response to the issues raised on that thread and in a few other places over the last week or so.

is lesphobic to insist that a lesbian likes penis. Feck off with that shite.
Add message | Report | Message poster KateMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 30-Aug-16 21:08:00
Hello all

Thanks for all your input on this - we've been listening and thinking hard.

Couple of quick points to clear up: it's actually not the case that people have been banned solely for misgendering - it will have been part of a broader discussion here about whether that poster is able to stick to the rules generally.

We must admit to being slightly taken aback at being cast, by some, as the evil slave-baiting Roman republic in this grin - as lots of you have pointed out, Mumsnet remains one of the few places where these issues can be discussed at all. It would have been much, much easier (both in terms of the resource and the toll on our moderators' sanity!) to shut down the debate as others have done, but instead we are working hard to find a realistic balance between free speech and being a space which welcomes everyone.

From our perspective, the whole issue is pretty much covered by our Talk Guidelines. If people are using sex-at-birth pronouns to provoke, inflame, or belittle, then that's against the rules and will usually have to go. If it happens as part of an otherwise broadly respectful (even if heated) discussion, we look at it in that context and take a view.

Some of you have pointed out a disjunct between allowing posts which mirror mainstream scientific thinking, while asking MNers not to describe a trans woman as 'he'. We can see your point on this,and also accept that there is a fair amount of dodgy stuff on the trans side that can rightly be described as anti-feminist and regressive - but what we'd ask you to think about is the impact on the parent who's not an activist, and likely isn't even posting, but whose adult child is transitioning, or who is doing so themselves. Would they feel belittled, mocked or attacked? Would they think Mumsnet was not for them? If so, we're going to have to remove it. It's a fudge, but it's the best we can do at this stage.

In all but the most extreme headline-grabbing cases, we do think it's possible to debate the core principles without referring to individuals in a way which will cause hurt. Most of you have said that when talking to a trans person face-to-face you wouldn't insist on using birth pronouns or names - and generally, on this and other issues, we encourage people to treat others with the same courtesy they'd use in real life. For every MNer who posts on a thread there are likely to be ten who are lurking - statistically, some of those will be trans or love someone who is, and we need to take account of them too.

We hope that makes our thinking a bit clearer overall. Do continue to tell us your thoughts - it's probably unrealistic to think that this issue will be quickly resolved here or across society as a whole, but it would be brilliant if MN could be part of the solution, we think.

MNHQ

"...and also accept that there is a fair amount of dodgy stuff on the trans side that can rightly be described as anti-feminist and regressive - but..."

That says it all really

Finally I agree with this. This is basically a way of saying 'who gives a fuck about womens rights' to me tbh. There should never be a but at the end of that sentence to try and justify this. Ever. Especially here.

Bowing out now as I am getting strangely mad which never happens to me on forums and such. This level of anger is not good for me and my poor bashed keyboard.

I will continue to call monsters such as Ada Wells a man, and I will not give a hairy crap if any 'parent' of a child struggling with transsexualism (or BDD) is offended by my use of the incorrect pronoun.

This. Isn't it more offensive to these hypothetical parents to suggest that all trans people are like Ada J Wells and the other misogynist and/or criminal men who are discussed on these threads? MNHQ mention courtesy in their response. There's a very big difference between courteously using the preferred pronouns of a trans person you know in real life, and being required to show 'courtesy' towards Ada J Wells, Danielle Muscato et al. As someone said on one of the 'bullshit' threads, that isn't politeness but submission.

I am not cis. I do not have a gender identity, because gender is a construct I reject.
I am not 'non-trans'
I am not a 'non-man'
I am a woman.

This board is centered around parenting, I get that. Here we are, a bunch of women who are being told that the basics of reproduction ie sexual dimorphism that produces children in the first place, is bollocks. That we must view the Earth as flat.

Does anyone see the hilarity in that?

I am not going to call a man 'she' or 'her.' That's the very thing that erases women. It erases the gender based hierarchy that we females live in, the very thing that oppresses us.

Other than that, I don't know what to make of MNHQ's response. You're either going to let women speak about material reality or you're not.

WankingMonkey I have wondered about the disproportionate numbers of MtF too.

Especially if you look at it from a body dysmrophic view point where men and women are equally affected by it.

I would be interested to see figures from MtF and FtM surgeries and how quickly each group opts for the life changing surgery and drug therapies as opposed to talking therapys, presenting how they wish and live in the body they have rather than change it. I am genuinely curious to see if it would fit with both MH conditions.

I have met many men who have had surgery to become more femanine and not yet met one woman who has had surgery to become more masculine. Also to point out. A number of MtF I have met are very open about their surgery and this may have skewed my 'findings'

Right changed my name

Was going to change it to Rufusthe nonCisSpartacusReindeer but that would take ages to change

Plus christmas would be difficult rufusthenonCisSpartacusRedNosedReaindeer

"but what we'd ask you to think about is the impact on the parent who's not an activist, and likely isn't even posting, but whose adult child is transitioning, or who is doing so themselves. Would they feel belittled, mocked or attacked?"

So it's not ok for lurkers to feel belittled, but it's fine for women, some of whom who have been active members of this site for years, to feel belittled and ignored. And when they're not being ignored they're being silenced. YCMIU.

HouseMouse, I've just reported a post to HQ and mentioned the Flat Earth Society!

MN - I know you're trying to navigate your way through choppy waters and of course you need to respect future users / lurkers who have a child who identifies as trans but what about me? I've been a member for over a decade and I really need to talk about this stuff. I have an 11 year old daughter and she has already experienced a bunch of sexist crap, male peers who watch porn, check, catcalling at age eleven, check.

I need this forum and I need to be able to use factual language, not doublespeak.

Agree tan

I would also appreciate a link to Facebook if someone could pm me.

(And off topic a little always nice to see Miranda here)

It just feels like this response is very meaningless. We acknowledge it's anti- feminist women but... but what?

I'm posting this link, which I followed from the link wankingmonkey posted up thread. It pretty much nails why this censoring/deleting/removing the so called 'offensive' posts on MN which touch any transgender discussions is just taking us all further down the rabbit hole of absurdity.

How the hell did we get here?

"There is a fair amount of dodgy stuff on the BNP side that can rightly be described as anti-black and regressive but...."

"There is a fair amount of dodgy stuff on the MRA side that can right be described as anti-feminist and regressive but..."

"There is a fair amount of dodgy stuff on the ISIS side that can right be described as anti-Western and regressive but..."

Ugh so mealy mouthed.

also accept that there is a fair amount of dodgy stuff on the trans side that can rightly be described as anti-feminist and regressive - but..."

I'm glad this is (kind of) being acknowledged, because there really are some right inconsistencies and double-standards.

'Don’t call me ‘he’! Transgender Tory councillor calls in police because Labour opponent keeps calling her ‘he’ in meetings '

(Daily Fail link, sorry...)

What MNHQ said on the Spartacus thread about the use of the word cis was:

It seems sensible to apply the same rule of thumb to 'cis' - so where it's used pointedly to inflame/provoke etc, we'd delete it.

That seems reasonable to me. I really don't think it's comparable to the N word, and indeed it is quite offensive to black people to suggest otherwise. There simply is not the history of hundreds of years of slavery, torture and exclusion behind the use of that term that there is in relation to the N word. And it recognises that, though some women might find it offensive, it simply cannot be suggested that every woman, or even the majority of women, do. Most women either have little or no idea what it means, or basically think "Meh" in response to it.

You could, of course, go for a quid pro quo: agree that, on MN, "cis" is unacceptable in the same way as it is unacceptable to call trans women "he" or "men" unless they have acted in a way that is exclusively male, most notably by committing rape. But it is illogical to make a massive fuss about your right to call some inoffensive trans woman "he" whilst at the same time making an equally massive fuss about "cis" being used at all. Free speech is a two-way street.

The bit about 'balance between free speech and a space which welcomes everyone' .... It seems that MNHQ has been veering away from free speech towards the 'safe space' notion. Does anyone else get furious at the primary meaning of that term now apparently being places where ideas cant be challenged, where free speech and free thought are suppressed (in fact very dangerous places especially for young people). Instead of what it used to be and still should be - actual safe spaces for people who need them. Which is precisely one of our main concerns - the erosion of actual safe spaces for women.

Agree Errol- free speech as long as no one is offended is no free speech at all...

Sorry not

I would never purposely insinuate that Cis was the same as the N word

Right I'm wading in......

I've read all the posts and comments before reading this tonight and had to post.

I joined MN to chat, debate and exchange ideas with mums as in the name. But in the past few days all I've seen is racism against anyone who was born a woman by genetic males who want to become women.

Are you all fucking mad? I saw on thread tonight by someone demanding that the mods put up a separate thread to answer their demands as they had hidden the thread the demands were about. Special fucking snowflake Much? They then refused to answer the question put to them by declaring the thread a non discussion zone. This is a discussion board is it not. All this while complaining they were not allowed to discuss in another thread and this was sooooo against the idea of a discussion board.

I take it we are all over 18? Good. Then wise the fuck up. Genetics can not be changed therefore neither can seX. Gender is some bulls hire concept thought up so as not to offend the ever growing number of snowflakes. You're born a man? Want to dress, behave and live as a Woman? More power to you but you will never be a woman. You will always be a man. Doesn't matter how much money time and heartache you spend under the knife.

And just because you know you can't genetically become a woman do not try to insult those who were born femalE out of spite, hatred, jealousy.

And to all. You cannot demand answers while refusing to give them. You cannot insult and then cry victim when you are insulted. And you cannot actake like a cunt and then cry into yer cornflakes when people treat you like one.
MNHQ flaky 'cover our arses' response to a serious issue and tbh on a site called MUMSnet I'd expect a bit more support for mums, or potential mums, and therefore genetic women, and not for people who have proved time and time again that they are hear only to insult females in general.

I still find the term cis offensive. Why do my feelings matter less than that of parents of transitioning people?

hypothetic parents especially

TwatBadgering and WankingMonkey (what a combo of names!):

I suspect the disproportionate number of MtF transitions will be related to the fact that in our stupid patriarchal society the gender rules for men are still stupidly rigid. While decades of feminist activism has gotten us to a point where women can make more choices about dressing and hairstyles (although that's still limited by archaic attitudes), ideas of masculinity are still really quite inflexible.

It's much harder for a man to go to work in a floral dress and lipstick than a woman to wear trousers. Boys names are used for girls all the time, but not vice versa. Indeed, names that were traditionally masculine but have been used for girls are now often considered too girly for boys.

So you get more men who decide they must be women because they'd like to express traits that are considered 'feminine' or dress according to feminine gender norms etc.

And we're not allowed to discuss the fact that it might be much better for everyone if we ditched the gender delusion entirely and worked on the basis that your biological sex has no bearing at all on whether you prefer skirts or trousers or like to wear nail varnish. If that were the case no one would need to transition to another gender. And we wouldn't have people deciding that their young sons are transgender because they like pink dresses and dolls and really aren't fussed about football.

Obviously there's still those people who experience body dysmorphia related to their sex. But it seems to me that the transgender debate doesn't serve this group of people very well either. Indeed, these issues end up being sidelined in favour of rubbish like cotton ceilings.

And I say 'we're not allowed' because any attempt at sensible discussion ends up being diverted into some crap about preferred pronouns and misgendering.

Demand?

Do you mean when the poster said So please can you post your thoughts on a new thread. It would be open, its own thread and clear to see - rather than hidden in a post on a thread.?

Where are the demands?

By the way, plenty of the women taking part in these discussions - and posting on the rest of the site - are not mothers.

As for racism, eh?

How you want to dress though..I don't really see what that has to do with transexualism? I know it must be hard to dress in typical 'womens' clothing styles, but to chop off your bits to be able to do that...seems a bit extreme.

And if its about how people (men especially) view you wearing a dress and such, you are not going to get LESS grief from not only wearing said dress but also demanding to me called Mrs Robinson.

If that makes sense? Autogynephilia makes a lot more sense in understanding it tbh

However I agree about getting rid of the gender stereotype rubbish entirely. But that can only happen if more 'trans' women start just being men in dresses, if thats really what its about for most. Like the guy who is 'pushing the limits of what it is to be a woman' or something by wearing womens clothes but keeping a gigantic beard. Why does this have to be about women, and not men?!

Personally I find the use of cis in relation to 'gender' risible rather than offensive. Cis to me is and always shall be this this. Its the emphasis on 'gender' which is more of the problem. I don't want to be anything-gender.