Thoughts on MNHQ's response to the Spartacus thread

[OlennasWimple]

As the Spartacus thread is about to reach capacity, here's a new thread to discuss MNHQ's response to the issues raised on that thread and in a few other places over the last week or so.

is lesphobic to insist that a lesbian likes penis. Feck off with that shite.
Add message | Report | Message poster KateMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 30-Aug-16 21:08:00
Hello all

Thanks for all your input on this - we've been listening and thinking hard.

Couple of quick points to clear up: it's actually not the case that people have been banned solely for misgendering - it will have been part of a broader discussion here about whether that poster is able to stick to the rules generally.

We must admit to being slightly taken aback at being cast, by some, as the evil slave-baiting Roman republic in this grin - as lots of you have pointed out, Mumsnet remains one of the few places where these issues can be discussed at all. It would have been much, much easier (both in terms of the resource and the toll on our moderators' sanity!) to shut down the debate as others have done, but instead we are working hard to find a realistic balance between free speech and being a space which welcomes everyone.

From our perspective, the whole issue is pretty much covered by our Talk Guidelines. If people are using sex-at-birth pronouns to provoke, inflame, or belittle, then that's against the rules and will usually have to go. If it happens as part of an otherwise broadly respectful (even if heated) discussion, we look at it in that context and take a view.

Some of you have pointed out a disjunct between allowing posts which mirror mainstream scientific thinking, while asking MNers not to describe a trans woman as 'he'. We can see your point on this,and also accept that there is a fair amount of dodgy stuff on the trans side that can rightly be described as anti-feminist and regressive - but what we'd ask you to think about is the impact on the parent who's not an activist, and likely isn't even posting, but whose adult child is transitioning, or who is doing so themselves. Would they feel belittled, mocked or attacked? Would they think Mumsnet was not for them? If so, we're going to have to remove it. It's a fudge, but it's the best we can do at this stage.

In all but the most extreme headline-grabbing cases, we do think it's possible to debate the core principles without referring to individuals in a way which will cause hurt. Most of you have said that when talking to a trans person face-to-face you wouldn't insist on using birth pronouns or names - and generally, on this and other issues, we encourage people to treat others with the same courtesy they'd use in real life. For every MNer who posts on a thread there are likely to be ten who are lurking - statistically, some of those will be trans or love someone who is, and we need to take account of them too.

We hope that makes our thinking a bit clearer overall. Do continue to tell us your thoughts - it's probably unrealistic to think that this issue will be quickly resolved here or across society as a whole, but it would be brilliant if MN could be part of the solution, we think.

MNHQ

No, transmen are not men because they are not men.

I think the anecdote is an illustration of why tying yourself in knots over something doesn't always lead you to the truth Japab. HTH.

Also it illustrates something else I believe - the more outlandish the claims become, the more people will reject it. Quietly maybe at first, but with some determination. When one loses the argument TRa could usually toggle back to the sympathy support. People were nice about trans because they felt sorry for them. That advantage is being lost by the TRa community.

I think it's a nice story. My husband isn't that interested - he agrees but I wish it was a bit less 'if you say so dear'

It matters because rather like the whole men menstruate shenanigans, the demand that terminology be adapted to spare the feelings of privileged westerners reduces the impact of a campaign which is about raising awareness and bringing about positive changes to the lives of women.

Women are discriminated against, refused education and butchered because they are female bodied and trying to force us to change the terminology just makes it harder to tackle the issues.

And yes, the more outlandish you get the more the majority of the world will just go "oh fuck off". I want transpeople to be able to live their lives free of discrimination bur this sort of nonsense just hurts their cause. Most people are not delusional and know instinctively that a woman and a man are different. Trying to make us deny basic biology is a nonsense.

Dhl got up at 4 when I was feeding and said "wtaf are you reading that has you so absorbed?"

So I showed him, he read a bit, looked at me and said 'so men can have periods and give birth? Like fuck they can and if it up to us to give birth the world would've ended long ago. Transmen are not men, trans women are not women. They have changed their genitals not their dna and anyone who believes a man can bleed and give birth has had a lobotomy "
It's simple biology. Women have uterus especially and therefore bleed, men do not. Men have a Penis, women do not. Women have XX dna, men xy. Whoever cannot understand this needs omega 3 more than hormones.......

Hope you told him that most don't change their genitals.

Saying that, i hope they are happier after any surgery just wish they didn't feel the need to go to such awful extremes. Less surgery the better.

bambambini he knows that most don't have GRS and therefore the comment, scientifically correct, "women don't have a penis and men don't have periods".

Anyone who claims differently is lacking in basic biology. It's not transphobia, nor is it hate, or denial. It's simple fact

I keep thinking about something I read in 'Don't Sweat the Small Stuff' by Richard Carlson that used the analogy of life being experienced from the inside out like driving a car, so that changing your external environment often has a limited impact on happiness & how it is important to make changes to your way of thinking & approaching life. I think one of his other famous mantras is 'wherever you go, there you are.' You get the picture. I'd be really interested to know more about the long term efficacy of transgender hormonal and surgical interventions on wellbeing, particularly given the seemingly high suicide rates post transition. Has there been any serious examination of talking therapies in this context? I can't help wondering if surgical & hormonal interventions really address the person's underlying unease with their body. The survey results for detransitioning transmen posted recently & the low levels of pre-transition counselling in the respondent cohort were really striking.

Surveys are only snapshots. It's like tv ads saying you women must hide your grey hairs and slap this on your head and you will be beutiful 98% of women say so!
Then at the bottom of the screen the 98% turns out to be 98% of 400 women who tested slap it on quick, hardly a nationwide representation.
This is why I take no notice of surveys. I actually do yougov surveys myself to get £50 out of them. Do I answer truthfully. Of course I don't and I suspect most people answer randomly. That is why survey results are way off.

There have been a couple of posts mentioning people's DHs, which reminds me of something I often notice about the "transwomen are women. Period." guys. And this is that not only are they men, they're particularly objectionable men.

I've been lucky with the men in my life and, like the 2 previous posters, none of them would have the arrogance or entitlement to announce that they were women. To see "woman" as a costume you can put on requires a total lack of respect for women, more than that: a hatred and contempt for us.

Most pleasant, kind partners and fathers immediately "get" why MTTs don't belong in women-only spaces. Oddly enough, it seems it's on the supposedly "feminist" sites that we hear how we must prioritize MTTs. Men as a bunch don't seem to have bought into the crap, nor do they seem to want to bully women into accepting it. My DS were totally appalled at the cotton ceiling rubbish.

"I actually do yougov surveys myself to get £50 out of them. Do I answer truthfully. Of course I don't and I suspect most people answer randomly."

Why on Earth not?

Why would you lie on an anonymous survey, especially after you take their money?

I tell the truth (or as close to it as possible) on yougov surveys
What's the point otherwise? Why intentionally ruin someone's work?!

I spend far too much time looking at online debates and comments on American sites about MTTs accessing women-only spaces. Because of the Bathroom Bills, it's a red hot topic.

What I see again and again is men, particularly fathers, saying that they don't accept in any way or shape that their family members must be exposed to penis in woman-only spaces. Men know all too well what other men are capable of and they're not falling for all the po-mo smokescreen. All sorts of men: Conservatives, countrymen, liberals - though perhaps not ones who define themselves as uber progressive.

I know a lot of women feel it's patronizing when men want to protect them, but I also know my DH saw it as an important role for a man, something he brought to the table of our relationship. I could bear children, he could lift heavy weights and, if needed, defend me. He was proud to be able to try to protect me and our DCs from ill-intentioned other men. He used to joke that testosterone should be a banned substance.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that outside tumblr and the echo chambers of trans activism most people don't believe any of it. The man in the street is happy to see the trans as a kinda gay, generally benevolent, but as soon as it comes to penis in front of little girls all their tolerance and patience evaporates. What I might call "nice men" have a particular level of intolerance about this issue.

I think what men think about the issue will, as always, matter more than what we do. If so, it's a good thing a lot of men don't go along with trans beliefs. Of course many men watch loads of porn and are likely to have no problem identifying the sexual preoccupation of so many AGP MTTs.

For the record, I adore Germaine Greer. I was so happy that she stood up for women in the face of such male violence.

If you watch her talk here you'll see that the people who attack her are males. Go to 1:17:00 and watch the males in the audience start demanding shit from her. She shuts them down immediately.

In fact, these 'liberal fun fems' are only packing the audience for their little gotcha moment because we all know they have to have their little safe space echo chamber.

Women don't have safe spaces.

She is amazing! I don't agree with every point she makes but she is still awesome.

You're right. In a lot of the 'other' spaces so many feminists are banned from talking.

Prawn

I agree that most men will not tolerate dicks in a girls locker room and you mentioned why. Men know the capacity of other men to violate women and girls. A part of me finds that incredibly sad and pathetic that this is the way men think. You have to wonder how it is a man would recognize that in another man and why his first thought is 'that man is in that locker room to sexually gratify himself by harming females.'

I watch a lot of vids on Youtube where they catch pedophiles. Out of the 400 or so vids of stings I've never seen a female caught. Ever. The reason I bring this up is because of some of the conversations the male hunters have with these predators.

You'll often hear them ask 'what if she was YOUR daughter?'

And you hear them talk about how it's normal for men to think about sexual activity with young girls but they just shouldn't cross the line.

This really shocks me and when reading your comment Prawn, I was reminded of it. It also makes me furious because I truly don't know if men can be trained out of this predatory sexual attitude and behaviour. Is it simply a matter of gender training or is this problem with men something much more inherent? I don't know. It's a question I struggle with constantly.

It also makes me furious because I truly don't know if men can be trained out of this predatory sexual attitude and behaviour. Is it simply a matter of gender training or is this problem with men something much more inherent? I don't know. It's a question I struggle with constantly

There was a really interesting but terrifying post on Femonade about this exact question some years ago - basically about WHY patriarchal societies are designed the way they are designed. I think about it often.

Amal my DH is kind of like yours. He has no time at all for men who try to convince everyone they are women. He thinks they need help - such as a psychiatrist, and is utterly scornful of their sickening attitude towards women's spaces and women themselves.

I don't like men really, just a handful, but I do like that they do seem less tolerant of men proclaiming they are women, than women themselves are. But I understand that is conditioning that somehow, we HAVE to break away from.

HouseMouse, it's very hard to know where it comes from. It's very deep, the level of hatred for women that some men express, and I think a lot of it stems from the family.

My dad is lovely, told me all the time that I could do anything growing up. My brothers are also lovely, long married, feminist-thinking men - same dad, of course and (probably because of how I'd been brought up) I married another one. I now have DS I'm bringing up on feminist values. So a family that brings up men who behave the way you'd want. And I have absolutely no doubt that the same thing happens in reverse to generate loathsome misogyny generation after generation.

Not saying I haven't had personal experience of vile misogynists, because I have. Just had the sense not to marry one. I wonder how much of it is down to how their father treated their mother or perhaps how their mother treated them.

The other angle is our awe-inspiring capacity to bleed without injury and to grow babies in our womb. Some men think it's astonishing, some that it's disgusting. Once again I think we're back to upbringing.

There's definitely a taboo amongst men against judging other men's sexual behaviour. A man may disapprove of another man cheating on his wife but he won't say so. And young men can be cursed with an overwhelming sex drive. Boys are open about masturbation with other boys. They sometimes do it in groups when they're kids. I can't imagine girls doing the same.

When my DSD was in her teens she used to say how comforting it was to introduce a new boyfriend to her dad, making sure they knew she had a great big dad to protect her. She felt the few boyfriends it put off were no loss. My DH was a very gentle bloke but his sheer size could be intimidating. He said he knew all about teenage boys because he'd been one.

m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/11893838 Some, thankfully, logical articles exist but when the science museum has gender neurobollocks for an exhibit it's going to be an uphill struggle to fix the crap that's happening to language.

prawn my ex recounted a story to me about his best male friend (I'll call him Bob for clarity) and a close female friend (I'll call her jo)

The female friend had told my ex that Bob had sexually assaulted her as she was getting out of a car. Bob had given her a lift home. Bob had tried it on several times. Jo brushed him off and said no several times. As jo got out of the car Bob thrust his hand between her legs.

My ex is still in shock and cannot believe Bob would do this because 'I've know him for years and he's a nice guy' but he also knows jo wouldn't lie about this or anything for that matter.

I've given ex the 'if a woman says she was assaulted then she was' talk but he can't shake the possibility Jo could be lying and he can't stomach the thought of Bob being a sexual deviant and guilty of assault.

He's still friends with Bob and jo and obvs jo refuses to attend events when Bob is present.

His friendship with Bob is more important than the safety of his female friends. I told ex I would never want to be around Bob and he isn't welcome in my home. Ex was taken aback at my stance. Why would I risk inviting a man who has commited such an assault in my home? Ex said 'but he wouldn't do anything to you because of me'

I think this is common amongst men. They are quick to doubt claims of assault by male friends but quick to protect wives/girlfriends/sisters and daughters. But in doing so they fail to protect the women theyll claim to because they fail everyone else :(

There's a reason I'm no longer dating.

Depressing to see neurobollocks in the science museum, but good that uk huff evidently isn't on the same page as the us one (there was a link to a horriblly anti-feminist pro TA piece recently, not sure which thread)

God, that's an appalling story, Twatbadging! I can't believe how your ex has reacted. That's bad. How well do you know your ex?

Seems to me a man who'll make excuses for that sort of shit is the sort of man who'd do it himself. You know him, I don't. But it's pretty horrifying. Men can be very forgiving of their mates' behaviour but not many would overlook sexually assault on another mate.

My DH protected complete strangers on occasion and I don't think he was exceptional. A lot of men get very angry about sexual assaults and find men who commit them revolting.

Lets just say Bob holds a position of power. One that could make life incredibly difficult for ex and jo and I have wondered if, in part, that explains his reaction and her reluctance to report it. Self preservation and shock can make people react awfully. Not excusing his response but... It's messy.

Oh, I see. How horrible. If your ex feels he's got to keep in with a creep like that, must be vile. Would drive me spare. I think I might have to do the right thing, end the friendship even if there were consequences. Couldn't stand the strain.

Your ex is obviously wrong, but it is very hard for people in these situations as we see with so many women who stand by their man.

It is horribly telling though that Bob would not do something like that to you, out of respect for your ex, not out of respect for you as a woman.

It's more a no choice situation. But ex is still wrong for not doing anything but I know why. If that was me I would probably, begrudgingly sit on my hands until I could find another job. I couldn't risk my finances which is a horrible horrible thing to say but I just couldn't.

Yes, if i hadn't dated ex I'm sure Bob would be a creep to me. I wouldn't put it past him to do anything now tbh.

There are a number of men like that though. I've known too many. The men who wouldn't believe my stepdad beat me.
The man who wouldn't believe my friend, his girlfriend, was raped.
The court who believed I was in a relationship with a man who stole my mobile because I knew who he was. So they let him off. Small town. You knew who the dodgy people were.
The club bouncers who would try it on and if you said no wouldn't let you in the club (this was late 90s btw) the one in particular who would use a fake floppy penis through his flies and would only let you in if you touched it.

This is how perpetrators get away with it for so so long esp esp if they are rich and white or hold a position of some responsibility :(

I'm not man hating. I just see the male world for what it is and how easy it is for men to hold power over all women and men they consider below them.

There's So little action. Mostly because innocent parties, witnesses and whistle blowers will be treated like liars, a grass etc

This is part of the reason I'm so ducking angry about the job security rule being increased to 2 years. It offers whistle blowers or witnesses no protection and no incentive to report nasty things.