Thoughts on MNHQ's response to the Spartacus thread

[OlennasWimple]

As the Spartacus thread is about to reach capacity, here's a new thread to discuss MNHQ's response to the issues raised on that thread and in a few other places over the last week or so.

is lesphobic to insist that a lesbian likes penis. Feck off with that shite.
Add message | Report | Message poster KateMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 30-Aug-16 21:08:00
Hello all

Thanks for all your input on this - we've been listening and thinking hard.

Couple of quick points to clear up: it's actually not the case that people have been banned solely for misgendering - it will have been part of a broader discussion here about whether that poster is able to stick to the rules generally.

We must admit to being slightly taken aback at being cast, by some, as the evil slave-baiting Roman republic in this grin - as lots of you have pointed out, Mumsnet remains one of the few places where these issues can be discussed at all. It would have been much, much easier (both in terms of the resource and the toll on our moderators' sanity!) to shut down the debate as others have done, but instead we are working hard to find a realistic balance between free speech and being a space which welcomes everyone.

From our perspective, the whole issue is pretty much covered by our Talk Guidelines. If people are using sex-at-birth pronouns to provoke, inflame, or belittle, then that's against the rules and will usually have to go. If it happens as part of an otherwise broadly respectful (even if heated) discussion, we look at it in that context and take a view.

Some of you have pointed out a disjunct between allowing posts which mirror mainstream scientific thinking, while asking MNers not to describe a trans woman as 'he'. We can see your point on this,and also accept that there is a fair amount of dodgy stuff on the trans side that can rightly be described as anti-feminist and regressive - but what we'd ask you to think about is the impact on the parent who's not an activist, and likely isn't even posting, but whose adult child is transitioning, or who is doing so themselves. Would they feel belittled, mocked or attacked? Would they think Mumsnet was not for them? If so, we're going to have to remove it. It's a fudge, but it's the best we can do at this stage.

In all but the most extreme headline-grabbing cases, we do think it's possible to debate the core principles without referring to individuals in a way which will cause hurt. Most of you have said that when talking to a trans person face-to-face you wouldn't insist on using birth pronouns or names - and generally, on this and other issues, we encourage people to treat others with the same courtesy they'd use in real life. For every MNer who posts on a thread there are likely to be ten who are lurking - statistically, some of those will be trans or love someone who is, and we need to take account of them too.

We hope that makes our thinking a bit clearer overall. Do continue to tell us your thoughts - it's probably unrealistic to think that this issue will be quickly resolved here or across society as a whole, but it would be brilliant if MN could be part of the solution, we think.

MNHQ

There is a great video someone linked to on one of these threads, which pointed out that talking about "pregnant persons" is the equivalent of a white person saying "black lives matter" should be replaced with "all lives matter." Abortion is a women's rights issue precisely because abortion is denied to so many women world wide because of institutionalised misogyny. To take the word "woman" out of the equation is to render this causal factor invisible, just as to insist "all lives matter" is to render invisible the fact that black people are disproportionately likely to be shot dead by police.

Actually, Jed I think your analogy works the other way round. Fruit is arguing that the term "menstruators" might not have been introduced in deference to the trans lobby, but might simply be to spare women like myself (stages in my life where due to PCOS I had no periods, now menopausal) emotional pain and the risk of being "triggered" (to which I say big hairy male bollocks and stuff your trigger warnings up your arse). But if she was right, let's try the following thought experiment. Imagine a leaflet for men in couples undergoing fertility treatment in which it talked about the timing and frequency of one's ejaculations so as to maximise sperm count. Can we ever imagine a situation where the men receiving such a leaflet might be referred to as "ejaculators" rather than "men", in deference to the men who can no longer ejaculate due to treatment for prostate problems (a situation someone very close to me is in, and incidentally a men's health issue which is very poorly represented, discussed and for which next to no help exists)? No we bloody well can't. Such a leaflet would never, ever be produced. And this distinction between the way men are treated and the way women are treated is important.

Hey fruit your logic is flawed. Sanitary products are not just used by women with periods. They are used by post-menopausal women for discharge. Women mid-cycle for discharge that increases during ovulation. Up until recently when incontinence pads were thick and uncomfortable women used sanitary pads to catch minor urine leakage. Some women still do because they are often cheaper and easier to get from a corner shop.

So to even suggest it is to stop any offence to women who cannot menstruate is a little bit silly.

That's very true, Twat, and pregnant women (who are most definitely not menstruating) also need pads sometimes for discharge. It's a stupid thing to write when 'women' works just fine.

I can't imagine durex ever being advertised as " for ejaculators" either.

My local asda had a woman's health section with tampax etc but also tenants lady. I want them moved to another area. I find the idea that pregnancy and childbirth may make me incontinent one day triggering.

I've heard protests against the term FGM too.

indeed jed they are all still things that affect only women.

stat Actually I can see a whole line of products that could have 'for ejaculators' as the tagline...

Lynx - for ejaculators

Ok back to serious stuff..

yes they tried to compare FGM to circumcision. When there is no medical need for FGM but there can be a medical need for circumcision.

To further Matilda's point, the tax on sanitary products is also part of a larger picture of discrimination against WOMEN - if men used them, they wouldn't be taxed. Just like the abortion issue, by trying to stop us using the word women the regressive left is denying us the ability to name our oppression.

Really Fruit, if all you are capable of doing in this debate is dropping in to make silly nonsense points that convince nobody, you are probably doing your cause more harm than good.

They can fuck right off with trying to rename FGM too. No, your narcissistic hurt feelings do NOT trump the rights of little girls not to be sexually mutilated. WTAF is wrong with these people?

FGM is one of my biggest peak trans issues, and one on which I find it impossible to remain polite. For the most part in these discussions I try to work out where the other side is coming from in order to avoid coming across as being as unhinged as the extreme transactivists, and having my point lost in the noise. But on renaming FGM to "child genital mutilation" because really the thing we should be worrying about most is the hypothetical possibility that a child to whom this abomination was carried out might grow up to identify as trans... I'm afraid the only response I can muster to someone who comes out with this crap is "fuck off to the far side of fuck and when you get there fuck off some more."

micro it is bandied about on MRA sites. That feminists are fucks because they don't campaign for bans on circumcision.

Another point I refuse to state that is male circumcision because the female form is mutilation not circumcision.

I've tried to work out where they are coming from. But come to the conclusion that people who don't wish to hear the term "FGM" because they are trans and find it triggering (not due to the fact that little girls are being sliced up for misogynistic reasons, but because they don't agree with the use of the word "female") are just fucking narcissists.

TBF to Planned Parenthood, they have no qualms in naming female body parts in various places on their website, including here for example, with no "front holes" or any such nonsense. So I'm inclined to be charitable to whoever is running their Twitter feed and say that they are using a shorthand of "menstruators" to mean "women who have need of feminine hygiene products".

There's possibly also something about it being an American organisation, as terminology over here can be a lot blunter to our UK ears (black and white people, for example, are called "blacks and whites").

Planned Parenthood is also under such invidious and sustained attack from a number of powerful lobby groups, that I wouldn't completely blame them if they were trying to avoid opening up a new front of attack from TRAs. Though I would be very amused to see TRAs with placards on the pavement demonstrating outside PP buildings, stood next to the more usual elderly men and women with pictures of foetuses and the Virgin Mary

The implant actually stopped my periods (yay!) so I am not one of these 'menstruators' and haven't been for nearly 3 years now (4 if you include during pregnancy) but I still find the term fucking insulting. A woman is so much more than a monthly fucking bleed...ugh this is actually annoying me

StatisticallyChallenged: "Just looking at some figures and a recent review suggests 80% of those who identify as trans are "identified boys at birth" - or transfeminine/transwomen."

I'm assuming this survey includes all trans including older people. The DSM V (p455-456) says there 2 types of people diagnosed with gender dysphoria early and late onset:

"Adolescent and adult natal males with early-onset gender dysphoria are almost al­ ways sexually attracted to men (androphilic)."

"Adolescents and adults with late-onset gen­der dysphoria frequently engage in transvestic behavior with sexual excitement." And
"factors under consideration, especially in individuals with late-onset gender dysphoria (ad­olescence, adulthood), include habitual fetishistic transvestism developing into autogynephilia (i.e., sexual arousal associated with the thought or image of oneself as a woman) andother forms of more general social, psychological, or developmental problems."

There are also two types of females who are diagnosed with gender dysphoria: "Adolescent and adult natal females with early-onset gender dysphoria are almostalways gynephilic."

"Adolescents and adults with the late-onset form of gender dysphoria
are usually androphilic and after gender transition self-identify as gay men. Natal femaleswith the late-onset form do not have co-occurring transvestic behavior with sexual excitement."

Those diagnosed as children are gays and lesbians, those diagnosed later are het women and men, but women "do not have transvestic behaviour with sexual excitement." The reason there would be more trans males (transwomen) if the survey includes older people is obvious. Older men try to hide their motives and often claim to have 'felt like girls' since they were young, even though they have fathered children etc. There are many, many males with this motive, so if a survey includes them then there will certainly be more men included then women, since women do not have this motive for transing.

When it comes to children and that motive is removed there are far more girls than boys at least in the UK. A UK study found twice as many girls than boys were referred to a gender clinic. Of the 1,398 in 2015/16, 913 were for girls and 485 were for boys.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/11/referrals-for-young-transgender-people-double/

My post was rather broader, but the figures alone would suggest that if the difference is solely due to autogynephilia, then assuming early onset occurred equally then roughly 3/4 of trans-feminines would theoretically be autogynephilic. If the early transitioning numbers are actually higher for women then that would suggest it's even more in order to end up at 80%.

But we're not supposed to talk about that particular elephant, even if it seems to have a hell of a lot of trunks!

I'm not convinced that the split between early onset homosexual transitioners and late=auto-g is true anymore though. I'm not sure the DSM is accounting for the current crop of 'gender queering' people who are identifying as trans but, IME, are just feminine men/masculine women, or a bit attention seeking (rather like the multitude of 'bisexual' females I went to school with who never had a female partner/relationship and are all married to men, twas quite the trend!)

Not all women menstruate. It was referring to women that have a menstrual cycle. I don't buy tampons as I use contraception and don't bleed, therefore tampon tax campaigns, which I support, are not a major priority for me.

At any given time most women are not menstruating. That doesn't make us menstruators. If they really want to be inclusive why not "menstruating women and transmen" . Fucking disgraceful next-level 1983 shite.

"rather like the multitude of 'bisexual' females I went to school with who never had a female partner/relationship and are all married to men, twas quite the trend!"

Yes, I remember that trend well. For a while in 1990s & early 2000s, it seemed bisexuality was not only desirable but expected in women. So many girlfriends kissing girls at parties to attract men's attention & gaslighted into threesomes.

WitchingHour666 the sexual behaviours with late onset trans, like all fetishes, are they likely to be heightened in certain environments?

With arousal much higher for a autogynaephile (is this the correct term?) in spaces that validate the vision of himself as a woman?

cote and then being labelled a prude, frigid or other getting other abuse for not doing it. I was a teen and living alone then and it was assumed so often that the only safe place for me to go clubbing was the local gay club flipping fantastic place and the guys would always wait with me until my taxi arrived to go home. Going to a 'straight' bar. I never felt that cared for. Random sidetrack that.

Yes, I remember that trend well. For a while in 1990s & early 2000s, it seemed bisexuality was not only desirable but expected in women. So many girlfriends kissing girls at parties to attract men's attention & gaslighted into threesomes.

I was caught up in that trend. I was never really attracted to women but felt I should be as everyone else seemed to be. So I experimented..did the whole 'kiss a girl to get attention of boys' thing too. It was rather nice (oddly enough, to this day I still believe women are better kissers than men lol) , but it just didn't do it for me really. I grew out of it all by the time I left school at 16. This movement is entirely different, as some cannot simply 'grow out of it'..especially if their puberty and such has been delayed due to the current trend.

Oh it's hugely more dangerous because of the permanence of the potential changes...but I think at least some of it comes from a similar place

I think autogynephilia (AGP) and various philias/fetishes found among MtTs need more attention, because it's increasingly clear that many men transition for entirely sexual reasons. They go bonkers if anyone mentions that sexual motivation may be an underlying factor to transition, and yet if you lurk on transgender support sites you'll see men blatantly admit that it's all about what gets them hard.

I know I assumed when I first came across transsexuals that they were gay men who wanted SRS so they could fulfil their fantasy of having sex as women. I now know that 80% of MtTs have and intend to keep their penis and that the trans umbrella has stretched so far that an ever-increasing number of those who qualify as trans are what I'd consider cross-dressers: straight men who are sexually attracted to women. Given the amount of lesbian porn they watch, it's no wonder they're furious when they don't get the hot girl-on-girl action they deserve...

What used to be called sexual fetishes and are now called philias are very much more common among men than women and, as any police officer can tell you, men will take astonishing risks to fulfill them. A number of fairly common ones are directly related to wanting access to women-only spaces. There's various types of voyeurism, including being aroused by witnessing women urinating/defecating and there's exhibitionism, which includes bog standard "flashing" but includes exposing their genitals while dressed as a woman, with the fear or shock of the women who witness it being part of what's desired. Men sometimes hide in women-only spaces to hear or see women perform natural functions. They use cameras/recording devices to allow them to store this home-made porn.

I am not claiming that these are the only motivation behind transition. Certainly not. There are lots and lots of men who indulge these philias while just being men. One recent example was of a man who masturbated on women's clothing he was trying on in a changing room. But there are plenty of incidents in which MtTs enjoy their paraphilias to the harm or distress of women. In the same month a transwoman was caught taking photos of a woman changing, chased out of the store and arrested.

It's becoming cool to be trans, particularly for men, and I'm certain that porn has a lot to do with the explosion of interest in transition. A 2015 report from CNBC tells us that sales of transgender porn have increased 14 percent in the past year, and now make up 10 percent of its overall revenue.

From the International Business Times site comes this quote: "When asked if transgender porn was his most popular genre, porn studio Evil Angel VP Adam Grayson answered: "In terms of revenue per scene or movie? Hands down, without a question. Nothing even touches it. And it's been that way for decades, since the early days of it. And we sell it at a price premium. Let's say an Evil Angel wholesale DVD is in the $15 range. A trans release, same packaging is $19. Why? Because we can get it."

"Trans porn was initially categorized in the gay section of the porn aisle in the 90s, but it became clear that straight men "kinky straight men" according to trans porn star veteran Wendy Williams are the primary demographic for trans porn." She-male porn, which typically shows men with large breasts and large dicks, is massively popular with men.

The article goes on to explain that on the free porn site PornHub the number one searched category is lesbian. This is lesbian porn directed at men. This is where the cotton ceiling guys are coming from.

I would like to stress that I wish no harm on anyone, regardless of their gender presentation. I do not believe that all MtTs are paraphiliacs. I'm sure they aren't. But I believe that sexual philias are a major component of why some men wish to present as women, and that we - as women - do ourselves no service if we ignore it.

Sorry for long post. I've been thinking about this - and checking it out - for ages.

Thanks Prawnofthepatriarchy that clears up my early question re environmental factors heightening fetishes and sexual arousal.

I know men who have been very open about their fetish for females urinating. One confessed only being near and hearing a woman urinate meant he could ejaculate but porn if this nature was arousing just not to the same extent. I may be running in 'interesting' circles but most men I know (online and RL) have some fetish from just wearing female underwear to work to feminization/ sissy and location is a big factor for them with regards to their sexual experience.

It certainly makes the case for keeping women only spaces and keeping the definitation of a woman as someone with a vagina to protect the majority rather than change it to appease a minority.

I notice there is no female equivalent to autogynaephilia - it's not heard of / has never been recorded - which further supports the need for female only spaces.

And the obsession with lesbian porn certainly explains the vitriol towards lesbians who won't consider transwomen as sexual partners. Some do. But it's the almost expected 'I am a woman (with a penis) you must be attracted to me' and then the entitled transwomen do voice that entitlement with vile threatening ways in much the same manner as angry MRAs

Tumblr has a lot of anecdotal evidence from lesbian women of the abuse and accusations of being transphobic by transwomen just because they'll date trans men and bio women not them.

I've said it up thread it's so so messy. But the common factor appears to be some vocal and angry transwomen and I really hate generalising like that but that's what I am observing.

Forgot to add I too have no issue with transgender people and I really want there to be a good middle ground but that cannot happen until people with trans and identity issues get proper support to better pinpoint the issues and make sure it is for all the right reasons.

Fruit,

You seem to be completely misinformed. You write:

'I'm pretty sure the attempts to abolish sex work ARE excluding sex workers and their voices, driving their work underground, risking their safety, and making it impossible to work legally.'

Feminism is about women's and girls lives and we KNOW that women's and girls lives in the sex industry are HORRIFIC. Now, if you can't center women's and girls lives then you don't understand radical feminism. It's really simple and you just don't seem to comprehend this.

Another thing you don't understand is radical feminism is about ALL females, not a select few. So a few women saying prostitution is great and telling other women and men how lovely their lives are doesn't prove the rule that all women and girls suffer when they are disenfranchised through patriarchy so that the only thing left is to sell their body and soul to violent men.

Ending prostitution is about the big picture of ending male supremacy, male entitlement to women's bodies by disenfranchising women from sociopolitical and economic power.

When over 80% of women want OUT of prostitution, we take that very seriously. You think prostitution is 'work?' In what job does hostage negotiation become a focal point? In what job do you have to have panic buttons in the room so a man doesn't suffocate you?

In what Universe does a torture organization have to improve laws so that men who are found with ropes, cuffs and other equipment in his car should be stopped and charged? Do you know why those torture orgs want this legislation? Because johns are KNOWN to have these items for the express purpose of picking up a woman on the street and then using those items to TORTURE her. Men buy women in prostitution to VIOLATE THEM.

In my view, you're trolling. There are several places online to research the radical feminist position on prostitution and if you simply took the time to do this research you wouldn't be here making what I think are MRA-type bombastic statements like the one above.

Do the research first.

Housemouse

Is this a post on the wrong thread in error? Which thread is this from, as it sounds like something I need to read? It doesn't surprise me that Fruit thinks we're horrible SWERFs as well as TERFs.