Thoughts on MNHQ's response to the Spartacus thread

[OlennasWimple]

As the Spartacus thread is about to reach capacity, here's a new thread to discuss MNHQ's response to the issues raised on that thread and in a few other places over the last week or so.

is lesphobic to insist that a lesbian likes penis. Feck off with that shite.
Add message | Report | Message poster KateMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 30-Aug-16 21:08:00
Hello all

Thanks for all your input on this - we've been listening and thinking hard.

Couple of quick points to clear up: it's actually not the case that people have been banned solely for misgendering - it will have been part of a broader discussion here about whether that poster is able to stick to the rules generally.

We must admit to being slightly taken aback at being cast, by some, as the evil slave-baiting Roman republic in this grin - as lots of you have pointed out, Mumsnet remains one of the few places where these issues can be discussed at all. It would have been much, much easier (both in terms of the resource and the toll on our moderators' sanity!) to shut down the debate as others have done, but instead we are working hard to find a realistic balance between free speech and being a space which welcomes everyone.

From our perspective, the whole issue is pretty much covered by our Talk Guidelines. If people are using sex-at-birth pronouns to provoke, inflame, or belittle, then that's against the rules and will usually have to go. If it happens as part of an otherwise broadly respectful (even if heated) discussion, we look at it in that context and take a view.

Some of you have pointed out a disjunct between allowing posts which mirror mainstream scientific thinking, while asking MNers not to describe a trans woman as 'he'. We can see your point on this,and also accept that there is a fair amount of dodgy stuff on the trans side that can rightly be described as anti-feminist and regressive - but what we'd ask you to think about is the impact on the parent who's not an activist, and likely isn't even posting, but whose adult child is transitioning, or who is doing so themselves. Would they feel belittled, mocked or attacked? Would they think Mumsnet was not for them? If so, we're going to have to remove it. It's a fudge, but it's the best we can do at this stage.

In all but the most extreme headline-grabbing cases, we do think it's possible to debate the core principles without referring to individuals in a way which will cause hurt. Most of you have said that when talking to a trans person face-to-face you wouldn't insist on using birth pronouns or names - and generally, on this and other issues, we encourage people to treat others with the same courtesy they'd use in real life. For every MNer who posts on a thread there are likely to be ten who are lurking - statistically, some of those will be trans or love someone who is, and we need to take account of them too.

We hope that makes our thinking a bit clearer overall. Do continue to tell us your thoughts - it's probably unrealistic to think that this issue will be quickly resolved here or across society as a whole, but it would be brilliant if MN could be part of the solution, we think.

MNHQ

Nah, Sod, we probably just cease to exist at all At least, that's the impression trans affliated organisations give me, with language like that.

Menstruators and birthing individuals.
Last year, the Midwives Alliance of North America (MANA) conducted a politically correct purge of their guidelines, removing any reference to fact that mothers are women, for fear of offending the transgendered. But now, an alliance of midwifes, mothers and experts have began to fight back, insisting that it is “dangerous” and “harmful” to deny the “biological reality” of motherhood.
In 2014, with little consultation, MANA decided that being a woman was not a necessary or relevant factor for being a mother. They edited their core competencies document, and in effect ordered practitioners to stop referring to clients as “women” and “mothers” demanding they say “pregnant people” and “birthing individuals” instead.

sandrarose.com/2015/09/trans-dad-offended-by-mothers-and-pregnant-women/

Oh ffs. I've read that before but it still makes my blood boil. What hope is there for these people if they are offended by fucking reality? Why are we pandering to these self-obsessed narcissists? What good is this doing anybody, except the MRAs?

I'm really reaching the end of my tether. Something has got to be done.

First comment underneath that article:

"This is the end of days"

At this rate it'll be a fucking relief. I can stomach the apocalypse if it means no more Tumblr

makes, I was reading that survey earlier today. It made me so sad to think of those young women struggling to make sense of themselves and the world around them, and how vulnerable they are to all of this.

And as for "menstruators"! I have no words, so I'll pass it over to The Who:

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution

....

Meet the new boss
Same as the old boss

My God, that survey is terrifying. There are so few happy with transitioning. And the comments are tragic. Anyone know the background of the woman who conducted this survey? From the comments it appears she did it independently. It needs some serious publicity.

That survey is interesting, and sad - I'm struck by how young the participants were (17 on average at start of transition) and that 65% of them had no therapy before they started physical transition.

(However, it is specifically a survey of detransitioning women, so of course they're all unhappy with transition. It would be v. valuable to do a survey of the cohort as a whole to see what 5 and 10 year outcomes are like. Given the massive jump in trans-identifying people, I hope there is a similar jump in research funding...)

Posted this on the other thread by mistske.

You know. This whole trans debate probably won't affect me personally.

I haven't been raped or abused so i can probably deal with males or transwomen in the loo or changing room - if i was alone that might be different though and i'm fairly strong and physically confident.

I'm older and cynical so less open to peer pressure and trends like our kids can be.

i am not girl or young woman competeing at higher level sports.

I have only sons (though assuming that of course) so they wont be that affected anyway unlike girls might be.

I do think this is becoming quite big with school kids though. I have a friend going through it an older teenage child and it is really fucked up. So much peer pressure, internet pressure, totally surrounding themselves in a trans/gender non conforming bubble. Not exaggerating to say it's like being sucked into a cult - in her child's case anyway. Child now talking about hormones and possible surgery. My friend is 100 % sure her child is not trans - just caught up in it by the people she surrounds herself with.

What The Actual FUCK?

Planned Parenthood in the US are calling women 'menstruators'!?
Are you fucking joking me?

Just looking at some figures and a recent review suggests 80% of those who identify as trans are "identified boys at birth" - or transfeminine/transwomen.

Why is this proportion quite so high though? Why are there 4 times as many transfeminine than transmasculine people? I know auto-g has been suggested as a reason but that would suggest a rather huge number.

It's been mentioned that part of the problem is that the boundaries of acceptable behaviour for women is much broader than that of men - it's OK for a woman to be quite masculine when an equal level of femininity in a man wouldn't be socially acceptable. But, why is that?

I'd suggest a large part of the answer to that lies in the thing many transfeminine individuals proclaim they hate - feminism and feminists. If you go back 100 years, was it acceptable for a woman to wear trousers/manly clothes, do a man's job, etc etc. No, it wasn't in most cases. But for decades - centuries even - women have been challenging and pushing these boundaries. Feminists have fought for laws giving us equal rights, but we've also been constantly pushing the bounds of what we are "allowed" to do. As a whole men haven't and so the boundaries of "acceptable" for men have remained much narrower.

So now we have a fair number of men who - perhaps understandably - prefer the wider boundaries of "woman" and so decide that they are a woman, and get to take advantage of generations of hard work by women to widen those boundaries by saying "no, I'm a woman".

Well, no, fuck right off. Go set up "masculism" and work on widening the boundaries of what it means to be a man. Because that's what's needed - they won't need to fight for equality of rights in the way women did because they already have that, but they can go and fight to change what it means to be a man. The first women to wear trousers were brave women who pushed the limits of what was considered to be right and decent, they didn't dodge the issue by saying they should be able to wear trousers cos they were a man.

200 is a large number of women detransitioning given the very small minority transgender females makes up quaint

There could be a potential issue with biological females who are still transitioning and the validity of the results especially when you take into context the comments from detransitioned women that it was essentially 'transition or die'. That's how some trans communities see it. It becomes dogma, transition is black and white and it can be extremely difficult for an immature mind (because at 17 they are still children) to question the motives and reasoning and above all the fit for them. Its touted as a cure all when its obviously, through the work cari did, isn't.
Thats not to say the voices of women who are currently transitioning aren't relevant but there could be issues with it.

More research into the types of care for transgender individuals would be really beneficial more than the feelings about outcome. Even though it is still valid and the experiences of detransioned women needs to be shared too.

I want to know how they feel their care could be improved to prevent instances like this. Where women are scarred, damaged and have other complications from treatment that wasn't needed if the time had been taken to properly assess the condition and its presentation.

this issue is diagnosis and it appears an almost immediate diagnosis of gender dysphoria/being transgender is given and a pretty rapid response to giving unproven treatment and in some cases women acquiring the medications off prescription so they could be taking anything :(

this is what I find so scary given it took years to get a diagnosis of sensory processing disorder for the behavioural difficulties because the DRs were worried about mislabelling and getting the treatment correct.

These women were still children. They should've been treated with the same caution and all avenues explored for the mental health symptoms/issues they initially described.

What The Actual FUCK?Planned Parenthood in the US are calling women 'menstruators'!?Are you fucking joking me??*

Not all women menstruate. It was referring to women that have a menstrual cycle. I don't buy tampons as I use contraception and don't bleed, therefore tampon tax campaigns, which I support, are not a major priority for me.

The people tweeting their receipts are still women though. And I reckon you would struggle to find a woman who would object to the use of women instead of menstruators in that sentence. Menstruators is there specifically because of trans people.

FGS. There is no need for the use of that term and you know it. Women have periods. That would suffice. To use menstruators is part of an trans agenda. Yes yes, I get that you will say 'I don't care' so don't bother.

I'm fucking angry and I'm not the only one. Peakfuckingtrans#87

Fruit - just curious; if (for eg.) a female focused organisation tweeted that "Birthers now are entitled to two years paid maternity leave" would you still think that phrasing fine?
I am not a menstruator, just as I am not a breeder, feeder, birther, or any other function my body may perform.
I am a woman whose body has done these things. And other women and girls will have/has had/could have these things happen; they and I should not be reduced to a (potential) bodily function to salve the feelings of a fraction of a percentage of the population.

Are you absolutely certain that it's due to trans people, and not because a proportion of biological women eg menopausal, infertile do not menstruate?

"Not all women menstruate. It was referring to women that have a menstrual cycle."

Fruitcider - you know fine well this term is only being used because of sensitivity to trans folk - it's not about upsetting 87 yr old Auntie Ina who hasn't had a period in 40 yrs.

It would still be accurate to use women though as it doesn't say all women. You only need to use menstruator instead of women if you are trying to be inclusive to someone who is menstruating but does not believe that they are a woman

I'm not personally fucking affected by lots of issues - I've never experienced FGM, been a child bride, been forced to wear a burka, had to cut my own fingers off for wearing nail polish or had to drop out of school due to lack of access to sanpro.

Doesn't mean I can't see how they're massive fucking injustices to WOMEN.

But hey, you're not personally impacted by sales tax on sanpro and your not currently having your life curtailed by men in your space, so fuck women who are, eh?

Fruit

You are being obtuse and you know it. Fine that you don't agree with a lot of the trans stuff being debated here. But this is just stupid and fucking insulting.

I hope to see campaigns for prostate/testicular cancer rebranded for 'ejaculators'.

Mrs

Spunkers, I think

I was just thinkin that! mrs I might start referring to men as 'ejaculators' just to make a point. I doubt it would take very long for men to point out they are Much more than the fact they ejaculate.

Don't be daft, Fruit, I had a hysterectomy at a young age so I'm not a "menstruator" at an age where the vast majority of women still are, and it's not being done to spare my feelings. I have never heard anyone in my situation or menopausal bemoan the fact that they don't have to buy sanpro anymore. Mourning lost fertility, body changes, feelings about being womanly, yes, all these things are difficult. Not having to spend a wodge of cash on tampons any more? YIPPEE!!! I skip past that aisle and heave a sigh of relief. But I still take part in campaigns to get tax taken off the products when I can, and to get girls in the third world access to sanpro so they can go to school, because it's a woman's issue and always will be.

I might start referring to men as 'ejaculators' just to make a point.

Some men with prostate cancer would take issue with this, as one of the side effects of treatment is erectile dysfunction. But I get the general point you are making and agree "menstruators" is totally unacceptable. Women works just fine.