Thoughts on MNHQ's response to the Spartacus thread

[OlennasWimple]

As the Spartacus thread is about to reach capacity, here's a new thread to discuss MNHQ's response to the issues raised on that thread and in a few other places over the last week or so.

is lesphobic to insist that a lesbian likes penis. Feck off with that shite.
Add message | Report | Message poster KateMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 30-Aug-16 21:08:00
Hello all

Thanks for all your input on this - we've been listening and thinking hard.

Couple of quick points to clear up: it's actually not the case that people have been banned solely for misgendering - it will have been part of a broader discussion here about whether that poster is able to stick to the rules generally.

We must admit to being slightly taken aback at being cast, by some, as the evil slave-baiting Roman republic in this grin - as lots of you have pointed out, Mumsnet remains one of the few places where these issues can be discussed at all. It would have been much, much easier (both in terms of the resource and the toll on our moderators' sanity!) to shut down the debate as others have done, but instead we are working hard to find a realistic balance between free speech and being a space which welcomes everyone.

From our perspective, the whole issue is pretty much covered by our Talk Guidelines. If people are using sex-at-birth pronouns to provoke, inflame, or belittle, then that's against the rules and will usually have to go. If it happens as part of an otherwise broadly respectful (even if heated) discussion, we look at it in that context and take a view.

Some of you have pointed out a disjunct between allowing posts which mirror mainstream scientific thinking, while asking MNers not to describe a trans woman as 'he'. We can see your point on this,and also accept that there is a fair amount of dodgy stuff on the trans side that can rightly be described as anti-feminist and regressive - but what we'd ask you to think about is the impact on the parent who's not an activist, and likely isn't even posting, but whose adult child is transitioning, or who is doing so themselves. Would they feel belittled, mocked or attacked? Would they think Mumsnet was not for them? If so, we're going to have to remove it. It's a fudge, but it's the best we can do at this stage.

In all but the most extreme headline-grabbing cases, we do think it's possible to debate the core principles without referring to individuals in a way which will cause hurt. Most of you have said that when talking to a trans person face-to-face you wouldn't insist on using birth pronouns or names - and generally, on this and other issues, we encourage people to treat others with the same courtesy they'd use in real life. For every MNer who posts on a thread there are likely to be ten who are lurking - statistically, some of those will be trans or love someone who is, and we need to take account of them too.

We hope that makes our thinking a bit clearer overall. Do continue to tell us your thoughts - it's probably unrealistic to think that this issue will be quickly resolved here or across society as a whole, but it would be brilliant if MN could be part of the solution, we think.

MNHQ

venus I think Housemouse is referring to FruitCider's posts earlier in this thread:

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FruitCider Fri 02-Sep-16 12:13:55
Of course RadFem is not just about transitioning and the lack of support for it, RadFem also wants to abolish sex work and insists on calling consenting sex workers prostitutes, hence SWERF. Not all RadFems are TERFs or SWERFs, I have to add, but both of these ideologies stem from RadFem.

I don't use the term TERF or SWERF to shut down debate, I would rather have these conversations despite how uncomfortable they are. But by me using these terms, it makes it clear to the reader that my train of thought is that these debates are attempts to exclude transpeople and sex workers from certain areas of society and this line of thought is ignoring their voices.

PRAWN

I agree with you 110%. I have an account on a site where men are addicted to porn and I read intensively. I've found exactly what you describe. Men look for more and more sexual stimulation by going to the tranporn sections and then go on to describe classic autogynephilia. Many of them make posts like this 'AM I TRANS?'

The sexual component behind MtT cannot be understated. It's there the entire time.

In my view it's the major motivating factor.

Housemouse might be a bit late to the thread with that response but she's still absolutely bang on the money. Fruit seems to be hopelessly misinformed about most of the issues discussed here and she's also arguably trolling. I suggest that we don't bother to engage with her further - it derails what is otherwise a very interesting and constructive thread.

Venus:

Fruit made this comment on this thread. I've been away a few days and this morning went back and read about 10 pages and found it.

I couldn't help but respond so sorry if it's straying off topic. I'm a survivor of the sex industry. Fruit's comments to me are MRA/libfem bombast that cannot go unchallenged.

Agree with you there microferret, I was trying to save venus from heading off to other threads to look for the reference . I think FruitCider probably won't be coming back anyway.

Also, Prawn that was a really interesting post, thank you

I agree. Fruit is either a clueless libfem who has swallowed Everyday Feminism whole or she's trolling. Either way, her posts are not what you'd call meaty, so best rise above. Anyone who calls me a TERF or a SWERF is someone I've already lost interest in. Lazy name calling.

Must say I've come up in the world. I thought I was just me. Turns out I'm a Radical Feminist, which makes me feel far more dynamic! I am woman. Hear me roar!

However I should have started supper an hour ago, and am dapping off to do same, which puts me back in my cosy mum place rather neatly.

Ah, apologies Housemouse! I am lazy, I should have gone back a bit, I must have missed that gem.

One more thing, related to this thread. I've been looking at the African American community and many black women are also tired of men in dresses intimidating them and calling them horrific slurs.

Women of all cultures are sick of the transactivist shite.

Hi I'm delurking, another Spartacus to say thank you to the women here who won't be shouted down and keep quietly and persistently stating their case.

On one of the many threads I've been reading, there has been scorn poured on the idea that intact male transwomen will be in female changing rooms in the UK.

It's misplaced scorn.

My child's university accepts 'trans' people as the gender they identify with, without the need for surgery, hormones or any physical transition, and says they should be assured access to single sex facilities.

So yes, it's here, it's happening and it's real.

So yes, it's here, it's happening and it's real and it needs to be stopped. We cannot allow yet another attempt to stop us talking openly and honestly about realities to succeed. The Church were successful in this centuries ago but ultimately failed (though that is arguable in some instances), ISIS are still trying to stop free speech, and now the transactivists are trying their luck. They know the easiest way to get what they want - free access to woman-only safe spaces - is to stop the conversation. Don't let them.

The other thing to bear in mind is that they won't be satisfied with that. They won't ever be satisfied as so much of their identity is bound up in resenting women for everything women do. Like MRAs.

Indeed Memories, I refuse to enter a state of cognitive dissonance that reduces the rights of my entire sex.

Still Spartacus.

This is interesting.

Thank you for the link, as a lurker I found myself agreeing that young transition is child abuse and often homophobic.

Massively homophobic, I have a lot of gay people in my family and I wonder if they would be allowed to be gay under the new rules. I have fought gender stereotyping all my life and now it's being rubber stamped with laws to back it up, very, very scarey.

or even scary

I'm beginning to think the whole thing is a social experiment, how much can we get away with, how far can we go. There are countries fighting for the right for female spaces to save lives and we are giving them away to anyone who asks.

I refuse to enter a state of cognitive dissonance that reduces the rights of my entire sex.

That's the heart of the matter for me, in a nutshell. No one is going to gaslight or guilt trip me into that.

I have wondered that with certain TRAs LumpySpacedPrincess, if it's some sort of experiment. Especially those who work in relevant fields...

I know quite a lot of trans people, and while the word "cis" does come up a lot in their conversation, it does so fulfilling the function of a neutral descriptor, not as any sort of insult.

(And yes, it's the same terms as used with respect to cis and trans isomerism - derived from the Latin prefixes in both cases.)

But woman would do.

Well, no, because the prefix "cis" is used to describe both men and women (in fact, my impression is that "cis men" is a more commonly-used phrase than "cis women", although I have no statistics to back this up).

But cis assumes satisfaction and identification with the gender corresponding to the individuals biology and many of us don't accept that. We say we're women because of our biology only and in many cases we reject the boundaries that the female gender role would place on us. You could call it queering gender, or just plain old feminism would do really.

I prefer transfeminine vs woman and transmasculine vs man as it's a much more accurate description.

Just a question about the autogynepile thing...I've seen written in a number of places that this is exclusively something men do.
But often in my fantasies I am 'the man', complete with penis, abs etc. is it really not something other women do, or am I misunderstanding.

How one deals with gender roles is a very interesting topic in itself, but it's outside the scope of what "cis" was intended to cover.

I don't know. Maybe there'll be a better word or phrase someday for "sex assignation at birth matches this individual's perception of what their gender identity is". It's happened with other concepts.

DropYourSword [i]Autogynephile[/i] as a term probably does only apply to men; a woman with the equivalent fetish would presumably be an [i]autoandrophile[/i].

I have no idea how common either of those is.