Thoughts on MNHQ's response to the Spartacus thread

[OlennasWimple]

As the Spartacus thread is about to reach capacity, here's a new thread to discuss MNHQ's response to the issues raised on that thread and in a few other places over the last week or so.

is lesphobic to insist that a lesbian likes penis. Feck off with that shite.
Add message | Report | Message poster KateMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 30-Aug-16 21:08:00
Hello all

Thanks for all your input on this - we've been listening and thinking hard.

Couple of quick points to clear up: it's actually not the case that people have been banned solely for misgendering - it will have been part of a broader discussion here about whether that poster is able to stick to the rules generally.

We must admit to being slightly taken aback at being cast, by some, as the evil slave-baiting Roman republic in this grin - as lots of you have pointed out, Mumsnet remains one of the few places where these issues can be discussed at all. It would have been much, much easier (both in terms of the resource and the toll on our moderators' sanity!) to shut down the debate as others have done, but instead we are working hard to find a realistic balance between free speech and being a space which welcomes everyone.

From our perspective, the whole issue is pretty much covered by our Talk Guidelines. If people are using sex-at-birth pronouns to provoke, inflame, or belittle, then that's against the rules and will usually have to go. If it happens as part of an otherwise broadly respectful (even if heated) discussion, we look at it in that context and take a view.

Some of you have pointed out a disjunct between allowing posts which mirror mainstream scientific thinking, while asking MNers not to describe a trans woman as 'he'. We can see your point on this,and also accept that there is a fair amount of dodgy stuff on the trans side that can rightly be described as anti-feminist and regressive - but what we'd ask you to think about is the impact on the parent who's not an activist, and likely isn't even posting, but whose adult child is transitioning, or who is doing so themselves. Would they feel belittled, mocked or attacked? Would they think Mumsnet was not for them? If so, we're going to have to remove it. It's a fudge, but it's the best we can do at this stage.

In all but the most extreme headline-grabbing cases, we do think it's possible to debate the core principles without referring to individuals in a way which will cause hurt. Most of you have said that when talking to a trans person face-to-face you wouldn't insist on using birth pronouns or names - and generally, on this and other issues, we encourage people to treat others with the same courtesy they'd use in real life. For every MNer who posts on a thread there are likely to be ten who are lurking - statistically, some of those will be trans or love someone who is, and we need to take account of them too.

We hope that makes our thinking a bit clearer overall. Do continue to tell us your thoughts - it's probably unrealistic to think that this issue will be quickly resolved here or across society as a whole, but it would be brilliant if MN could be part of the solution, we think.

MNHQ

Yeah, ok, tip of the ice berg, true.

But I cannot help but think that it is not what needs to be focussed on too much.
You want to called 'Jane' and be known as 'she'? - Fine
Can we now talk about how we don't think it is appropriate that you penis is in a women's bathroom?

pacific

Actually changes in terminology normalise things and make it easier to change laws.

Not a particularly neat example because a lot of things are at play with this but it helps highlights my point - look at the vilification of the poor and disabled in the media - the media called them feckless, lazy, undeserving, scroungers, with countless TV shows showing the 'real' benefit scroungers. Examples of really bad human being who happened to be on benefits were centre stage -that horrid man philpott and others. We changed the terms how to describe people who have been unfortunate, had a bad run of luck and needed support. This then gave our shitty govt, with the backing of those who voted them in, the green light to make those cuts. IIRC some of the production companies and news media has links/ties/affiliations with politicians pushing forth these cuts.

The same could be said to be happening with some trans terminology. Change the meaning of the old terms, protest perceived misuse of accepted terminology that has been around for 100s of years (eg vagina), boycott companies who fall foul of the new 'rules', throw out as much 'positive media' using the 'correct' terminology and it becomes normalised in our everyday language.

Ok I may be oversimplifying and maybe terminology really isn't a big deal but we're at a point where we just don't know for sure and should question and should tread carefully.

I hope that made sense I am still struggling here with some of my own views on this whole thing.

Yes, I agree entirely with you.
And I too am struggling to come to terms with what seems like such a bizarre counter-intuitive development.

To me it seems akin to telling people who have full use of their legs that they can no longer walk because it hurts a wheelchair users feelings. And I totally accept that it must be hard for somebody who is unable to walk/run to watch, say, children frolic in the park. But it does not make their play less 'normal' (oh, how I hate that word) or indeed desirable.

I suppose I am just hoping that by focussing on the issues the debate about nomenclature will become less important.

Or like a 'transabled' person (an able-bodied person who feels he must be disabled - I kid you not) saying we shouldn't call his legs "legs" because that is 'triggering' and not what he wants to hear.

Yeah, well, those are legs.

And that is a vagina.

I may waffle. Please skip if you feel the need.... OK I googled that thinking it wasn't a thing... that is surely another dysmorphia/dysphoria type disorder and its interesting that its considered a psychiatric disorder that needs appropriate treatment. Like BDD etc but to have similar feelings about one's gender...? It certainly confuses matters and puts another slant on the medical side of transitioning.

given each condition - Gender Dysphoria , Body Integrity Identity Disorder and Body Dysmporphic Disorder leaves sufferers with a feeling of unease and being uncomfortable in their bodies/with parts of their bodies.. that can lead to depression anxiety etc?

Its quite striking how 2 are considered psychiatric conditions that must be treated with the right therapy and/or medication and one... DRs agree and help the person make physical changes. After all they wont amputate a healthy limb but will remove healthy reproductive organs. Where is the ethics here?

OK its probably not to have the time and place to have this discussion but seeing that now NonHypotheticalLurkingParent your wariness over your DCs desire to transition and mistrust? of the transagenda and medics making it possible. I understand it much more now.

I think the reason that two are treated with therapy and one is treated with surgery is that as a society we are still very uncomfortable with the transgression of gender boundaries - mainly because this challenges the patriarchy - and this is a great way to wrest back power from feminism. Pathologise normal feelings of failing to identify with stereotypes, reinforce notions of masculinity/femininity, force everyone to label themselves with meaningless jargon, and make the class struggle of females impossible by taking away their ability to define and organise themselves.

The inevitable, devastating backlash against feminism - cloaked in progressivism. Utterly terrifying.

Great point Cote

Interesting that there was a poster the other day, who hasn't found any type of contraception that suits her and already has a couple of children, was complaining that she cannot be sterilised in the NHS because she is too young, while at the same time, teenagers are being sterilised to turn them into transgenders.

I must admit to being very curious about the sudden rise of this issue. I live in Mexico City and in 2013, completely out of the blue they ran a campaign to end discrimation against transgenders. Nobody had any idea why this was an issue in a place where there is serious discrimination against the indigenous people and there has never been a campaign against that.

Atenco I read the beginning of that thread, and was half tempted to bring that double standard up. But didn't.

It just seems so ridiculous that a young teen could be put on the path of no return, but a adult mother isn't deemed to know there own mind.

Its interesting you bringing up what has happen in New Mexico, and makes wonder who/why/what is behind this sudden aggressive movement.

That's interesting point ferret the gender boundaries needing to remain rigid. I had wondered if it was risky to even consider TG as being a psychiatric disorder because of how vitriolic TRAs can become. I do, to an extent, think that it is but I have to tread carefully when discussing this possibility publicly. Especially when you have evidence that a lot of trans people post transition with or without a surgical outcome - are still unhappy, still have high rates of depression, anxiety, BDD, PTSD and alcohol and drug misuse. Which is the biggest trans issue tbh and that isn't going to solved by changing terminology or shutting down feminists.

I agree all this has done is make feminism a pain in the arse atm. I am personally finding it very difficult to converse with a friend who does think 'TERFs' are horrible and has shut down my own questioning over terminology with 'why does it matter you aren't trans?' when it absolutely does because its changing the baselines that have existed for 100s of years. That I know help define me as a woman.

With the hatred aimed at gender critical feminists and the use of the word TERFs to shut down very important conversations though interestingly if feminists used 'Feminist Exclusionary Radical Trans' (I know its not in usage ) because our concerns and needs weren't addressed there would be uproar and could potential be guilty of a hate crime :(

I know I'm waffling now. Downside to saturday off! Time to sit and think about these things in more detail even if I still don't know where I stand or what some of it means :/

Not waffling at all Twat, this discussion is so important and it's good to thrash out ideas like this. Re. rigid gender boundaries, I always look to Iran, where transition is totally accepted, even encouraged and sometimes forced on gay men. Iran is a highly patriarchal society and its continuance depends on there being a superior and inferior class of people - men and women. Any transgression of gender boundaries undermines the conservative religious principle that god made men and women differently, and therefore must be eradicated. This convinces me that a lot of our motivation in the West to promote transition also comes from a similar desire to preserve the status quo, and to keep men on top where they think they belong.

Its not really FERT, its women exclusionary men. Oh wait, thats just normal misogynistic, patriarchal society, we cant call it a 'phobia' because its so normal. And TAs are appropriating 'woman'. XXphobia.

errol of course. Its such a bloody mess. Dangerously so :(

Thats a good point ferret RE the religious context. It really is a 'cure' for blurred gender roles.

Oh the irony, #transface was all over my twitter feed earlier, what about #womanface.

A transman is a woman.

I'm perfectly aware of that. I agreed with the Spartacus thread. I worded my sentance deliberately that way because people hate 'non-trans' or 'cis' and are adamant that 'woman' is perfectly fine. Which it is. Hence my separation of the two by using the term woman and transman. So yes, a transman is of course actually a woman, but if they prefer to refer to their own vagina as a front hole then I have no issue with that.
I used to work as a midwife in the UK and if I were looking after a transman in labour I would refer to their vagina as a front hole if that were their preference. Similarly, if I was having a sexual relationship with someone, I would have enough care and respect for that person to use terminology they preferred.

That transface link..seems a huge number of transsexuals have not got the memo that they are supposed to include men who are obviously men as trans now. Surely all Bomer has to say right now is 'I identify as female in my pink brain' and all of the abuse will stop? Thats how it works right?

NonHypotheticalLurkingParent

This survey is said to be the largest so far, which speaks to the lack of research on the subject.
Everyone should read this. As one participant stated-
'I didn't know I didn't have to be trans to be dysphoric'.

Results of the survey of over two hundred female detransitioners completed.

gendertrender.wordpress.com/2016/09/03/wow-first-ever-survey-of-two-hundred-female-detransitioners/#comment-73476

Female detransition and re identification: Survey results and interpretation
direct link-
guideonragingstars.tumblr.com/post/149877706175/female-detransition-and-reidentification-survey

I read that survey, it was interesting reading. Interesting to see that the majority had no counselling etc prior to transition.

I wrote this on another thread.
My ex had lots of self loathing which is why they felt so much better when they were femme. They didn't have their male personality making them feel bad, they said being male was harder than female and their female side had no history to came back and bite them. So she felt terrific and put it down to finally being 'her' authentic self. No psychiatrists talked about the motivation, they just went with it.

Taking hormones does change the brain and amplify dysphoria so its hard to not want to continue transition while taking them.

If people only see male and female they think they only have those to choose from. If you don't want to be male their only option as they see it is female.

That's heart breaking.

The comments from individual women are enlightening.

The fact the majority said transition wasn't helpful is alarming.

More studies like this need to be done.

Menstruators...? It's not the first example either. It's a recurring theme in their feed.

Yep the concept of "transface" makes my ironyometer implode.

And they can fuck right off with "menstruators" or "uterus bearers" or any shit like that.

What happens to "menstruators" at menopause? Will we become "non trans people formerly known as menstruators" ?