This is bullshit. Thread #2

[BeyondSpecialSnowflake]

Following on from...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/a2716008-Seriously-MN-this-is-fucking-bullshit?msgid=63181862#63181862

"if TW are women, why wouldn't they, at least theoretically, be acceptable sexual partners for lesbians? The fact that you understand that shows you know TW aren't women."

"No, it shows that I understand that most lesbians do not want to have sex with women who are trans. Which I think is perfectly acceptable for each individual lesbian."

But we are not talking about individual preference of some lesbians. We are talking about lesbians as a group being attracted to Women, categorically. And not being attracted to Transwomen, again, categorically.

As I said on the previous thread, this reminds me of mathematical equations that end with 1 = 2, for example. You see that result and you know that the initial equation was wrong.

In other words, starting out with "Transwomen = Women", you end with "Lesbians are attracted to Women so they must be attracted to Transwomen". But they are not. So?

So, the answer should not be to force Lesbians into spreading their legs for Transwomen with the frankly terrifying concept of "cotton ceiling". It should be checking the initial hypothesis (T = W) because if the result doesn't make sense in solving such a short equation, it usually means that the equation was wrong to start with.

I'm glad you chose to come back

I will admit to finding MN very very very hard at the moment. There is a lot of stuff on here I agree with but a lot I don't agree with. I find some of the language and attitudes very very hard.

At the same time, MN can be a great and supportive place.

I do think the trans 'agenda' has been taken over. I think people know what I have been through and some of my views. I have had surgery and I personally feel much happier for it.

I don't subscribe to many of the more popular views that I see about 'the cotton ceiling' and someone just saying they are 'a man / woman'. I have been shot down for saying that elsewhere.

I don't know what's caused me personally to be like this but I can tell you that I feel much much much happier in myself for having come out after many many years of torment and finally having had surgery.

Ego I don't reddit and I don't particularly want to follow the link. I just want to say stay well. The temptation to read what people are writing there must be overwhelming but please don't go back, put your health first and leave them to their conversation.

I found Helen admitting that essentially all transwomen do believe this shit very, very validating. So much better than all the pretence.

I don't often agree with you *Ego, as we come from two very different POVs and oppression (which is why LGB and T just don't mix!) but surgery made you happy. Fuck anyone who thinks your genitals are their choice. We, at least, have that 100% in common.

That thread is not very nice, no. I don't necessarily disagree with the frustration and anger, and it's extremely mild compared to what you would hear in a lesbian/bisexual support group. But still, obviously hurtful to you, personally.

Ego, I'm glad the surgery went ok.

"I deregged a few days ago. But I was lurking"

Oh please. As if there was ever a chance that you were going to stay away from MN.

How many times have you flounced before and come back under a namechange, sometimes mere hours later? (At least 4 times that I can remember).

I do hope that you are happier now as a result of your surgery, as you say you are, and so less sensitive to gender critical threads. For your sake and ours.

Cote I completely agree with your point about individual preferences vs groups, this long and well thought out post(from BuffytheReasonableFeminist) on another thread is spot on in my opinion

"I think the problem MNHQ have is the assumption that these two perspectives on sex and gender can exist side-by-side in a sort of 'you have your view, I've got mine, let's just respect that and be polite to one another'.

When in fact they are incommensurable. A venn diagram of two circles that don't overlap at all. You cannot at the same time believe women are women because they have been born with particular physiological arrangements that have a very precisely defined meaning in our society, said meaning leading to socialisation, and at the same time believe that a woman is a person who identifies with the gender identity woman regardless of physiology and socialisation. The two are different cause and effect pathways (if you like) and because they are grand social theories about sex and gender, you can't say that one person experiences one and another person another, because the whole point is that they seek to explain these over-arching processes, not individual experiences. In fact each version can easily can explain the other 'side's' beliefs in the terms of their own theory. It's just that these explanations cause deadly offence.

In other words, if you believe one is true, whichever one, then the other one can't be true, because your acceptance of one explanation of what womanhood is, necessarily means that the other explanation, whichever one, isn't actually what happens. If you believe in gender identity, then women with female physiology who call themselves women because of that actually have a 'female gender identity' and are cis (deadly offence to people who don't believe in gender identity). If you don't believe in it, people who are trans are in fact the biological sex they've always been, and simply identify more with the stereotype of the opposite sex, so they adopt the markers of said opposite sex (deadly offence to people who believe in innate gender identity).

That's the underlying reason why it's so very difficult to talk about it. It's not about pronouns, or politeness, it's about the unfortunate fact that stating one's sincerely held belief in how the world works, and thus how one has experienced it, is in itself offensive to those who hold the opposite view. That's why MNHQ will always struggle with it, because they're trying to occupy a middle/neutral ground that doesn't actually exist, when you dig below the surface."

How many times have you flounced before and come back under a namechange, sometimes mere hours later? (At least 4 times that I can remember

Probably. Hotel California...

TBH Ego I knew you'd post here, and I knew you would have flounced after the thread where you just went way OTT (the one about wants to discuss female sexuality)

I'm sorry your feelings were hurt, but you have flounced, very publicly, many times. It's kind of hard to take it seriously when I know exactly when you'll do it.

It's kind of hard to take it seriously when I know exactly when you'll do it

See. People making it about me. Why not stick to the thread rather than having a dig? It's not difficult.

I've never flounced, but I have had long periods away from MN for various reasons, including because I got upset by a thread and realised it was becoming too personal for me.

Ego you made it all about you by coming on the thread and bringing up Reddit.

Fuck it

So did our antipodean friend give up & go back to Twitter?
They were so confident that they were going to teach us all a lesson.

WTAF? You brought you up. I didn't. But whatever, that was a bit much, so disengaging.

It would be really sad to see this thread deleted as well due to being derailed...

beep beep beep
thread reversing into a cul de sac
again

Paul suspect said person was not used to just being eyerolled at. Said person expected outrage they could twist.

TBH eyerolling is extremely, extremely empowering.

No, IMO that was very manipulative. Makes it a lot easier to sympathise with the reddit frustration. Ignoring now.

"It's not about pronouns, or politeness, it's about the unfortunate fact that stating one's sincerely held belief in how the world works, and thus how one has experienced it, is in itself offensive to those who hold the opposite view."

Worse, biological reality is offensive to those who hold the opposite view.

Y-chromosome makes one male. That is biological reality. The only exceptions are rare anomalies and genetic disorders/syndromes. XY system of sex determination in placental mammals first developed 150 million years ago. It really shouldn't be up for debate in the year 2016,, let alone considered "offensive".

PaulDacre your C&P is spot on. I know MNHQ really, really, really don't want to "pick a side" but they need to.

Hopefully, they will choose the side of science over faith.

Everyone please disengage, and come back to the topic of the thread:

The bullshit.

Also, Cote, as a science person, can you explain to anyone reading as to why gay women are not the same as transwomen? Since clearly, some posters think we're somehow comparable.

Although I think any sane person would be able to deduce why, so maybe not!

I think for TRAs, the idea that we can raise our children - and will - for logic must really scare them. as it's logically young children's generation that will stop all this nonsense.

So they desperately need to not only shut motherhood down, but change all our opinions. How frustrating for them it doesn't work like that

ParkerPosie on Twitter has been doing a fine job this evening engaging with the #BoycottMumsnet person.