This is bullshit. Thread #2

[BeyondSpecialSnowflake]

Following on from...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/a2716008-Seriously-MN-this-is-fucking-bullshit?msgid=63181862#63181862

I'm not engaging with Lum anymore as Lum is clearly not reading any posts that are not a direct reponse to Lum's own posts. Which Lum would see everyone sees is obvious if they had read Helen's* posts, asking her about having no experience would be ridiculous

special I certainly wasn't ever going to have sex and babies I certainly wasn't going to get married.

I was going to have a recording studio and a motorbike

5 children, a failed marriage, no musical ability and a fear of motorbikes later I realise that maybe my very younger self knew bugger all about what my older self wanted.

A search of Lumidingo tells you all you need to know

Lum, the thing is you're ignoring thousands of women who tell you that their only experience of 'feeling female' is pregnancy.

I don't see how I'm ignoring them. But there are other opinions out there besides the one asserted - I don't see the benefit in ignoring those other opinions in favour of the one you're asserting. Like I said, I would never tell my friend that she can't ever have 'felt female' as a result of her surgery - why should I prioritize the perspectives of women who assert that it is only capable of being experienced via pregnancy and childbirth, over the perspectives of women who disagree with that assertion? It seems the most appropriate course of action is to recognize that for some women, that is the extent to which they have experienced 'feeling female', and for other women, that does not hold to be true? I wouldn't say I'm ignoring anyone - on the contrary, I think my position is wholly inclusive of all women's experiences.

Oh bolding fail FFS.

Tortoise shall we start a thread about evil bold?

Also, cheers Helen. I feel so Right On knowing the HTB thing please don't grow up DC, I don't want to learn your txt speak

Yet another derail.

Oh,i was going to have a fleet of motorbikes!

As a ault, I have a very rational fear of them

Exactly Special (post at 18.52)

Also I should maybe add, I was TERRIFIED of going through puberty. Absolutely terrified to the point where I cried myself to sleep on a few nights. I did not want to bleed each month, I did not want to grow tits. Not wanting to go through this does NOT mean you are trans, in any way. I think being scared of puberty and not wanting your body to change is quite common. It was among my friends anyway.

Though quite why I am still engaging I don't know, just felt the need to get that out.

So inclusive, yes. That's why I suffered so much abuse for my sexuality, and choice not to date transwomen because I am not attracted to them.

Disengaging.

lum

I think if my parents had shipped me off to an expert at five, because they thought something was wrong with me. I would too have thought something was wrong with me, before I even got through the door.

Instead my parents said you can do and be what you want. Cut my hair off as I requested, and let me choose my own clothes. No more skirts no dressess nothing frilly or as i perceived 'girly' . I played with and played how I wanted which was the same as my brother. By teens I no longer wanted to be a boy but I was still a Tomboy. Luckily society was more forgiving then.

Like I said, now? I believe I would be pressured into looking for a reason why I don't comform.

Helen welcome

I have no problem believing that there is a physical reason why a few males believe that they should be female, just like there are identifiable physical differences in the brains of schizophrenics.

Btw, if Lumidingo actually understood what he was reading, he would presumably realise that what he posted isn't a study but research of existing material. We don't really know about the underlying studies its authors have researched, of course, since we can't read it.

And if he understood the word "etiology" used in that link, he would also presumably understand that the research is talking about the etiology of transgenderism (as a "condition") and not pinpointing the cause of an elusive feeling of "gender" that some people claim to have.

Cote, your nerdiness is so useful to my stupid self

Other than counselling which is about affirming gender identity and not actually exploring or understanding anything

The counsellor my relative has is brilliant and does a lot of exploring what gender is and trying to understand my relatives view of what it is, asking a lot of questions and challenging views.

The counselling at the gender clinic (we don't go any more) was similar too.

I'm sorry your experience has been different Helen

Lumidingo it doesn't really matter how female a man feels, it's irrelevant. A man is not female. That's it. I don't care how female other women feel, they are BIOLOGICALLY female and men are not. In the same way that a trans"woman" is not a "lesbian with a penis". That doesn't exist. Lesbians are biological women who are attracted to other biological women. A person with a penis who likes women sexually is a heterosexual man (who albeit likes dressing and acting as a woman).

Special

Just saw The Screenshot.

Wasted my breath (fingers?) I see.

You should probably not use the same username for everything, Lum. That's internet safety 101.

The abuse we suffer as bisexuals/lesbians is not something anyone can ignore. Granted, a lot of people don't get it, because we see sexuality through the male gaze.

But the cotton ceiling and bullying isn't changing our sexuality. we're merely closing ranks against the abuse.

None of us, not one single lesbian/bisexual I know - including myself - has been 'converted' through creepy, rapey, mainsplainy lectures about Why We Should Fuck Them.

There's a certain sort of gallows humour in my community about the frothing rage these misogynists get themselves into when as a large, we don't get angry, disengage, and have love, have sex and children with who we want.

DH's twisted joke is he should name his penis The Conqueror, as before him I had only been with women, though identified as bisexual

This isn't actually a piece of research in itself (I don't think). It's a conclusion based on pulling together selected other snippets of research and suffers from confirmation bias.

It's a review study. It analyses a multitude of other studies (complete studies, not 'snippets'). Confirmation bias is a process by which the human mind assigns higher priority to incidences which correlate with expected patterns of behaviour and lower priority to incidences which do not. A review study investigates data derived from other research studies. It doesn't assign priority or value to the research it investigates, it merely determines whether the conclusions of said studies were demonstrated. I'm not sure what you mean by confirmation bias, but it certainly isn't applicable in the context of analyzing research studies.

'Delusions of Gender' by Cordelia Fine is essential reading before giving any opinions on the scientific validity of these studies.

I have it on my Kindle! It was very interesting, and served to demonstrate at length the disconnect between experienced gender identity and the impacts of societal expectations of gender performance.

This is actually the closest I have ever got to being able to discuss the psychological side of this without being censored, and I really appreciate that. Even before yesterday, when I was all for 'transpeople should be able to do what they like and everyone needs to deal with it', before my eyes were opened to the abuse that has been happening because of views like that, before I realized that the 'rules' have changed and now anyone who declares themselves to be anything is exactly that and everyone else is wrong...the psychological aspect of it all was something I wanted to talk about but was always shut down with 'its not the same as mental illness' and that was that.

You should probably not use the same username for everything, Lum. That's internet safety 101.

I don't feel the need to disguise myself, so that's not a great concern of mine, but thank you for the advice!

The abuse we suffer as bisexuals/lesbians is not something anyone can ignore. Granted, a lot of people don't get it, because we see sexuality through the male gaze.

But the cotton ceiling and bullying isn't changing our sexuality. we're merely closing ranks against the abuse.

None of us, not one single lesbian/bisexual I know - including myself - has been 'converted' through creepy, rapey, mainsplainy lectures about Why We Should Fuck Them.

There's a certain sort of gallows humour in my community about the frothing rage these misogynists get themselves into when as a large, we don't get angry, disengage, and have love, have sex and children with who we want.

DH's twisted joke is he should name his penis The Conqueror, as before him I had only been with women, though identified as bisexual

I haven't felt this free with my sexuality in an open context since I was with xDP, as obviously there's no 'hiding' your bisexuality when your DP is a woman you live with! Forcing myself to be honest on MN has been super liberating for me, and sort of 'woke me up' to the fact I was hiding who I am to avoid the previous shit I endured.

^^ That, is liberation for women's choices, BTW.

Lesbians are biological women who are attracted to other biological women.

There are lesbians who reject this classification. Here's one:

Twitter is proving to be quite rich with entertainment tonight (see photo)

These bright sparks are Lumidingo's friends. They clearly haven't read the thread title and/or ever heard of "I am Spartacus".

"Cult-like statement of who they are - I am X. Is that normal formatting on Mumsnet?"

Oh I so hope that you are all very young, Lum. For your sake, I mean.