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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

dear mn hq why are so many disablist threads being left up

999 replies

Samcro · 16/08/2016 15:21

one today for instance and mn hq post
"We don't think that this thread is disablist, it is a valid discussion that we don't think should be shut down. "

yet it has obviously been reported.
cause hurt and upset
how is that making life easier(or better) for the sn community`?

or this message from mn hq
That CBeebies is just far too PC
Thread deleted
Message from MNHQ: Thanks so much for all the reports about this.

Although there has been some interesting debate and discussion, we do agree that the OP and some of what ensues is disablist, so we have decided to delete.

how can these be interesting debates??
\not long ago mn hq said that they were going to be quicker dealing with this stuff
what happened??

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
PigPigTrotters · 17/08/2016 16:51

You can't educate the uneducable.

Samcro · 17/08/2016 16:54

DodgySpot Wine

OP posts:
PolterGoose · 17/08/2016 16:56

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DodgySpot · 17/08/2016 17:08

Ah I want go.

I'll just sit in the corner muttering 'cunts' for a bit.

Grin
DodgySpot · 17/08/2016 17:08

*wont

NeedAnotherGlass · 17/08/2016 17:09

There are also so many people who have no desire to be educated.
They have no interest in what it is like for anyone else, no interest in disability, they just want to be able to do what they want and think what they want about other people.

SparkleSoiree · 17/08/2016 17:11

I haven't read any of the threads referred to here but as a parent of a child with ASD I am shocked at Mumsnet's position being discussed here with no clear stand on Autism.

It actually makes me laugh in a strange way at how much people's ignorance is showing yet they believe themselves to be correct because they say it is.

One NHS clinical psychologist said to me "We don't like the common phrase of "mild autism", there are only individual autistic profiles."

People want to minimise everything yet have no idea what difficulty they are creating for a disabled person in the process.

NeedAnotherGlass · 17/08/2016 17:14

And there's always someone who KNOWS someone who has lied to get a diagnosis or pretends to be disabled or fabricated evidence to get a blue badge...

All of these anecdotes add credence to the notion that not all disabilities are real.

Samcro · 17/08/2016 17:16

the fraud thread will be deleted....as a bunfight
not because it has turned disablist

OP posts:
NeedAnotherGlass · 17/08/2016 17:36

That Fraud thread is a great example of the shit we have to deal with.

One of the posts goes into great detail about how parents she "knows" have faked various additional needs in order to get a school place. It's utter bollocks! By allowing posts like that to remain, people who read it then become extended "friends" and go on to retell the story to others about people they know...

Allowing the use of terms like "diagnosis de jour" is inexcusable.

AliceInUnderpants · 17/08/2016 17:38

I can't believe that we are doing this yet again!

Just5minswithDacre · 17/08/2016 17:40

Sparkle when we're explaining the 'a disability just like any other' thing yesterday, HQ first singled out Downs Syndrome from my list of illustrative examples as not being a valid comparator because DS is diagnosed in infancy (Confused)

THEN, in response to several of us insisting that Autism IS lifelong and an actual disability , they came back with "we know many of you see the world that way because of your experiences"(!!)

As if the status of autism as a disability is in the eye of the beholder.

So agreeing, essentially, with GF position that it's up for debate.

I still don't really know what to say.

It is deeply unfortunate that that labelling thread went before we could thrash the whole thing out.

Just5minswithDacre · 17/08/2016 17:41

So I agree with you sparkle that we need a clear stand from HQ, but I'm a bit worried that we've already got one.

PigPigTrotters · 17/08/2016 17:43

I think after MN's unfortunate comments where they certainly weren't covering themselves in glory, there was no other outcome for that thread.

Just5minswithDacre · 17/08/2016 17:45

I'm not saying a word pig.

AliceInUnderpants · 17/08/2016 17:58

It would be interesting for each of the MNHQ moderators to voice their own opinions as to the status of ASD as a disability - rather than MNHQ as a collective.

Queenbean · 17/08/2016 18:03

It would be interesting for each of the MNHQ moderators to voice their own opinions as to the status of ASD as a disability - rather than MNHQ as a collective.

That way madness lies.

AliceInUnderpants · 17/08/2016 18:04

But I would imagine the individual opinion of each moderator is contributing greatly to the issues we are having surrounding disablist posts.

akkakk · 17/08/2016 18:08

One of the difficulties with disabilities is that they are not as black and white as gender / race etc. - e.g. in race terms you are usually considered to be from a specific group...

With a disability there is very often a scale of severity - e.g. eyesight as a nice non-controversial discussion, there are millions of people (I am one) who are short or long-sighted, yet would not consider themselves to be disabled, or to have a disability - yet at an extreme someone who is blind clearly does...

A more difficult one for many is the discussion above reference Aspergers / Autism etc. - one definition in the sector is that it is the essence of maleness, and a scale on which we all fall, and at one end it is 'socially conflicting' (i.e. Autism - doesn't sit with how society works), towards the other it is 'socially uncomfortable' (i.e. Aspergers - can sit within society, but walks a different path), and elements of each are found in many / most people, and esp. male...

Once you start to put discussions into that context - that there is a scale and sometimes no polarisation, it becomes very difficult for a forum to manage conversations... There will be a number of views around and many of them are valid (but may still contradict), and some are clearly invalid - the difficulty in moderation is walking the tight-rope through those different views and deciding what is or isn't acceptable.

Just because two people don't agree, doesn't make one of them wrong, doesn't make one of them disablist... Equally, defining where the cut-off is, where comments are acceptable or not is not a simple black and white decision, it is too fuzzy a topic (in logic terms), and therefore the decision making needs to be the same...

A part of the problem we have though is that this is the written word with no other signals, so how one person sees it will be different to another, and a member on here who is involved / a part of the world which understands a specific disability (for themselves, or as a carer) will have a different perspective to staff who run an online forum.

And as mentioned above there are those who look at the world in black and white with no emotion - and equally many who don't - while we don't want people bullying or setting out to oppress, equally we live in a country where free speech is a key part of our society, so we can't allow people to close down conversations just because in their view it is not appropriate - a very difficult balance for MNHQ.

I think that the underlying approach needs to not be trying to define whether something is disablist or not - but a more generic question as to whether a comment is setting out to help or hurt, enable or hinder - is it supporting and improving the thread, or is it causing aggro - and I suppose that fundamentally that is what Mumsnet has in its talk guidelines...

Bloopbleep · 17/08/2016 18:11

I get quite confused when I see people say "I have a diagnosis of X (a legally recognised disability) but i don't see myself as disabled, so you're not disabled either." (Not in relation to any poster here but naturally following on from posts I've seen in this thread and my own experiences) How one perceives oneself or one's child's experience is nobody else's business but to deny an impact on others is a bit shortsighted to say the least and with Autism, I've seen this happen again and again on MN. It's said as if being disabled is some terrible thing (and don't get me started on inspiration porn) We need to change the mindset towards what disability is - some campaigns try but often go too far (see for example the c4 super humans ads) which results in popular media portraying anyone who struggles as an undeserving scrounger and disabled sportsmen as heroes (back to inspiration porn). People need to realise that disability too is a spectrum, from fitting the legal definition but having little to no impact on your life to it informing almost every aspect of your existence. There should be no stigma towards being disabled or saying I have X and sometimes I need supports and adjustments made - it shouldn't be a bad thing. Meeting the criteria of disability shouldn't be something someone feels they have to reject - although of course doing so because their condition does not in fact disable or disadvantage them in life is entirely a different matter.

Not sure if I've been clear or just put my foot in it and offended everyone on the planet.

PigPigTrotters · 17/08/2016 18:11

It might be an idea if MNHQ formed a temporary advisory board selected from MNSNers, who could then lead them through how to appropriately deal with threads like the labelling one, then leave them to it when they feel they can confidently manage alone, but knowing there's backup should they need it.

Just5minswithDacre · 17/08/2016 18:12

one definition in the sector is that it is the essence of maleness, and a scale on which we all fall, and at one end it is 'socially conflicting

Yeah well Baron-Cohen can fuck off, quite frankly.

Celebrity psychs with their bollocks pet theories do not help.

Just5minswithDacre · 17/08/2016 18:13

Oh god where's my wine got to? I'm fuming.

DixieNormas · 17/08/2016 18:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DodgySpot · 17/08/2016 18:19

I drank it all.

I don't think it's helpful to suggest that aspergers is to autism as shortsightedness into blindness.

Blindness = disability
Shortsightedness = get glasses

Autism = disability
Aspergers = disability

I think mnhq can follow black and white reasoning on this.

If it is classed as a disability, then it is one.

(Whether it is diagnosed soon after birth like Down's syndrome or later despite being present at birth like autism)

That was lively and simple wasn't it.