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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Original poster

Banning the term "cis"

979 replies

OlennasWimple · 06/07/2016 23:36

Apologies if this had already been done, but can MNHQ consider banning the term "cis", given how horrifically offensive so many users of MN find it?

I don't think I need to set out the background and reasoning to this request (but can do so if it would help!)

OP posts:
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6
amarmai · 15/07/2016 16:43

Some people are really twisting and turning to keep this cis label applied to women who are overwhelmongly rejecting it. CAll yourself whatever you like and leave the rest of us alone.

amarmai · 16/07/2016 04:06

The Time mag article puts this MN thread in context and the majority of negative reactions here are in line with other women's refusal to be renamed .

derxa · 16/07/2016 04:39

The term 'cis' inspires gales of laughter in our house. DS and I think it's hilarious. We usually discuss the cats eg 'Do you think Fluffy identifies as a cis cat' etc.

MaryZ I'm also furious that trans women can compete in the Olympics. It's a disgrace. As for Caitlyn Jenner and her bravery...Confused

Bambambini · 16/07/2016 07:30

That Janet Mock interview was strange, first time i've seen her talking - not sure what the interviewer really thought about it all.

I wonder if Janet would be famous if she wasn't trans, isn't that what she has based her whole career, public face, book, show on?

mamamea · 16/07/2016 08:09

Buzzfeed, Upworthy and the like are cancers on the universe.

MysteriesOfTheOrganism · 16/07/2016 08:33

I've heard it a lot from people who are active in the LGBQT community. Sometimes it is clearly used in a "scientific" sense to distinguish between those who identify with biological gender and those who do. But frequently it appears to have perjorative connotations, roughly meaning "those dreadful oppressors who are not actively promoting (embracing) LGBQT values".

BeyondBeyondBeyondBeyondBeyond · 16/07/2016 08:34

They are crap mama, but they are wide-reaching (as is everyday feminism) which is why I went with them for my list :(

LyndaNotLinda · 16/07/2016 11:31

I've seen it used a lot on the left. Sometimes earnestly in a desire to be more PC than thou, but increasingly as a stick for men to beat women with. It's a brilliant way to verbalise suppressed misogyny

amarmai · 16/07/2016 11:40

LNL thank you ! You have put into words what we feel about cis.......it is misogyny and that is why MNHQ needs to get off the fence.

MysteriesOfTheOrganism · 16/07/2016 12:02

Interesting, LNL. I mostly hear it used to promote misandry as much as misogyny (probably 70:30).

BeyondBeyondBeyondBeyondBeyond · 16/07/2016 12:03

Where to?

BeyondBeyondBeyondBeyondBeyond · 16/07/2016 12:05

I've only ever (that I can think of now) seen it used 'neutrally' or towards women.
Not that I doubt you! I'd just like to know where you saw it.

LyndaNotLinda · 16/07/2016 12:37

Thanks amarmai :)

Mysteries - I find when it's used pejoratively it's to shut down women from talking so I'm interested that you think it's more about propping up misandry. Can you explain?

Bambambini · 16/07/2016 13:20

Definitely, some men are loving this whole Trans / Cis women thing, that women are having to give space and compete against males.

MysteriesOfTheOrganism · 17/07/2016 08:49

LNL, 5B - as many here appear to have experienced, it is frequently spoken with something of a sneering tone. A tone that will be familiar to anyone listening to activists in any field: used to carry the weight of the political beliefs of the speaker and especially their disapproval/hatred of the target.

So at Republican rally, when someone says "socialists" they don't mean "people who espouse the principle of social democracy", they mean "evil commies who wish to take away my liberties, impose totalitarian government and give all my hard-earned money to feckless druggies, alcoholics and unmarried mothers".

Social conversation is littered with these shorthand terms for shared concepts and beliefs, but they're especially charged in political discourse.

It seems to me that "cis" is really no different. While it is sometimes used in the strictly technical sense, it usually will carry the concepts and beliefs of the
speaker.

In this case, "cis" can be a way of dismissing those who follow conventional social norms in terms of gender and sexuality. It handily divides "us" and "them". As many in the LGBQT community feel marginalised and oppressed, "them" clearly carries the implications of "the oppressors". Now the immediate target may be women who are deemed to be doing the oppressing, but as most of the speakers analyse social structures in terms of patriarchy, the ultimate oppressors are, naturally, men.

Personally, I regard such a sweeping generalisation that all men are oppressors as misandry, pure and simple.

Generally when I've heard "cis" used in conversation, the word "patriarchal" is used in the same breath.

VestalVirgin · 17/07/2016 18:04

In this case, "cis" can be a way of dismissing those who follow conventional social norms in terms of gender and sexuality.

That is only true insofar as their most hated enemies, namely feminists who do not follow those conventional norms, while at the same time refusing to pretend that they are male, and refusing to pretend that males can be women, are called "TERF", not "cis". However, I am sure there is a lot of overlap, many who are called "TERF" are also called "cis".

Generally when I've heard "cis" used in conversation, the word "patriarchal" is used in the same breath.

That may be, because some people talk of patriarchy without actually understanding what it means, and many so-called feminists ally with transactivism, but ultimately, transactivism is about keeping patriarchy in power.
It is nonsensical to claim that the term "cis" is in any way connected to misandry. The women who use it love men, want men in female spaces, want men everywhere.
... though perhaps, it might be connected to transmisandry. Hah.

VestalVirgin · 17/07/2016 18:08

Seek - you forgot those cisblack folk should acknowledge and check their cisblack privilege. Those transblack folk are much more oppressed.

Ah, yes, the transblack folk. Poor, oppressedests group ever. Of course, transblack transwomen are more oppressed than cisblack ciswomen. Biscuit

GarlicStake · 17/07/2016 19:51

While it is sometimes used in the strictly technical sense

What technical sense? There is no definition of gender identity that isn't self-referential. Therefore it's not technical, so 'cis' can't be either.

this innate, essential gender is the sole definition of gender that should be recognised for social, political and legal purposes. Apart from failing to define that essential, innate gender, on what basis should it be recognized? Philosophy? Science? This is hugely important now that transgender is having a social, political and legal impact – in the US and soon in the UK. I looked and this is what I found:

The Yogyakarta ‘principle’:
“Gender identity is understood to refer to each person’s deeply felt internal and individual experience of gender, which may or may not correspond with the sex assigned at birth…” A reference is not a definition but may be the reason we have women who are cats or men who are 6-year old girls.

The UK Select Committee:
Gender identity is “the gender with which [persons] associate themselves”. Is this what philosophers call a circular argument?

NHS:
“Gender identity is the gender that a person ‘identifies’ with or feels themselves to be”. A replicate circle.

US (Massachusetts) legal definition:
"Gender identity’ shall mean a person’s gender-related identity, appearance or behavior, whether or not that gender-related identity, appearance or behavior is different from that traditionally associated with the person’s physiology or assigned sex at birth.” A replicate circle (or perhaps the original).

GIRES (Gender Identity Research and Education Society):
“Gender identity describes the psychological identification of oneself, typically, as a boy/man or as a girl/woman. They say that some people experience a gender identity that is somewhat, or completely, inconsistent with their sex appearance; or they may regard themselves as gender neutral, or non-gender, or as embracing aspects of both man and woman and, possibly, falling on a spectrum between the two. ” This is a description, not a definition.

What a Scarlet Pimpernel this definition is. If one asks for a definition of culture one would be offered any one of the following after the verb 'is':
- the arts and other manifestations of human intellectual achievement regarded collectively
- the ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people or society
- the cultivation of bacteria, tissue cells, etc. in an artificial medium containing nutrients
- the cultivation of plants

Gender identity is something that is said to exist, and is "technically defined" as the thing that is said to exist. It's not a definition, merely a statement of belief.

Quoted from this interesting little memoir.

MysteriesOfTheOrganism · 17/07/2016 22:52

Vestal - I'm aware of both what I did and did not say. I was writing a forum post about my personal experiences not an academic paper on the subject. So, yes, I left a lot out, such as the TERF wars and vast amounts of subtleties, ifs, buts and maybes. And I can assure you that I have mostly (but by no means exclusively) heard it used by women who dislike men and men who like women who dislike men. I'm not claiming that as a universal truth - only as my experience.

Garlic - by technical sense I merely meant the dictionary definition, one that does not carry any conceptual baggage from a particular socio-political outlook.

SueTrinder · 18/07/2016 22:10

Soren Kierkegaard put it best: 'Once you label me you negate me'.

Don't call me cis.

LuluJakey1 · 18/07/2016 22:19

I hate the term and am offended by it. I am a woman and that is that.

MysteriesOfTheOrganism · 19/07/2016 09:32

SueTrinder - I wasn't familiar with that quote - excellent, thanks!

GarlicStake · 19/07/2016 09:51

One or two posters on this thread might want to support the petition here: www.change.org/p/hrc-statement-l-is-out-of-gbt

"This is a statement by Lesbians and our supporters that we are NOT part of the 'LGBT " umbrella. Our interests both as lesbians in particular and women in general are not represented by any alphabet organization. We have had enough of our voices silenced and our protests ignored. The 'LGBT community " is actively harming women with its insistence of focusing on transgender issues."

BeyondBeyondBeyondBeyondBeyond · 19/07/2016 10:17

Also don't forget the take the t out of lgbt one too!