Banning the term "cis"

[OlennasWimple]

Apologies if this had already been done, but can MNHQ consider banning the term "cis", given how horrifically offensive so many users of MN find it?

I don't think I need to set out the background and reasoning to this request (but can do so if it would help!)

[bakeoffcake]

So you won't ban the word 'cis' which many, many people have told you they find highly offensive. But you do ban women who refuse to call a man "she" because we little women have to respect men's wishes?

[MisDescamisados]

Blow me that anyone be offended ar being assigned labels, once again , by 1 people born male - however they identify - and their collaborators , and 2 insist that this label - which actually insinuates that women are content with the abuse the gender "woman" has piled on them ,via their biology - is harmless.


Forgive thus uppity woman pointing out that this is highly ironic - issuing as it does from people who insist that only the labels they assign themselves - must ever be used .
Both ways it cannot be had cupcakes . No.

As the ever on point R R-Cooper once remarked, if gender is a spectrum, what is trans ?
By extension, who is "cis"?

As to this piffle about it being a way to distinguish women from trans woman, I can only posit that this is a blatantly obvious attempt to linguistically erase the term "transwoman" in relation to woman , and replace it with " woman" and "ciswoman".
Again nope.

Finally " assigned"? No. Doctors and midwives do not cut the umbilical cord , then blindfold, reach into a tombola and see whether a pink or blue ball emerges .

Triple nope. They note biological sex .

[KatherineMumsnet]

Hi there OlennasWimple,

Our view, as RebeccaMumsnet mentions in her post above, hasn't changed.

We don't think that banning terms is the right way to go about things at this point. As per TG's, we still strongly believe that civility and respect towards others and their points of view is key. We would much prefer to look at each case in the wider context of the thread.

If anyone persistently misgenders by using the incorrect pronoun (and we include cis in this) then please do report to us and we will take a look.

[OlennasWimple]

Hello MNHQ, just wondering how your pondering on this issue is going?

[GarlicStake]

:)

[Kr1stina]

Thanks for the links garlic , very helpful

[GarlicStake]

I thought you might like this, Alias, mainly because it beautifully aligns "race" with "gender". notazerosumgame.blogspot.co.uk/2014/02/what-gender-is-and-what-gender-isnt.html

When we have caused offence by rejecting cis I don't think there are any polite answers. Nor even any effective ones, I fear. You can try arguing that you can't be cis because you're nonbinary: “Any woman who has ever told a man to fuck off is nonbinary” – Cathy Brennan.

For a bunch of astute commentary, I'll refer you to the formidable Miranda Yardley.

Here's her commentary on the Transgender Equality Report. Maria Miller has been replaced by Justine Greening as Minister for Women and Equalities.

[GarlicStake]

curled up sick with feckin pleurisy

Oh, heck, poor you! [cis sympathy]

[Aliasnumberone]

Thanks meph I'll check out those links when the babies are napping

[MephistoMarley]

4thwavenow.com

[MephistoMarley]

transgenderreality.com

[Aliasnumberone]

Sorry for typos, curled up sick with feckin pleurisy so coughing my lungs up makes typing on the phone harder than usual!

[Aliasnumberone]

Venus, ffs... Like I said my exposure to these conversations is recent. I honestly thought that suggesting cis tears may be used as an argument would highlight the ridiculousness (is that even a word?) of the direction some people were taking the debate in. Appears in too late to the party though and it's already gone there. Has anyone come up with a counter for being accused of crying cis tears? its a genuinely perplexing argument. In race discussions of you are told youre crying white tears and object then you're told youre racist for not acknowledging your privilege and there are racist. In relation to this type of discussion about the use of the term cis, if you are told youre crying cis tears how do you refute that assertion without being accused of being transphobic? I don't believe it is transphobic to object to the use of the word cis, but it appears that some radical activists use the 'white tears' / 'cis tears' as a get out jail free card for any discussion in which they disagree and need a convenient put down to end the discussion.

Venus, maybe you could point me in the direction of some half decent stuff to read. I heard everyday feminism mentioned earlier in the thread and also being slated for being misognist, where's a good place to start for a newbie?

[venusinscorpio]

Alias, great post. Just wanted to say though that people already do make comments like "crying cis tears" and compare it to race to shut down discussion of women's biological issues and legitimate concerns in mainstream feminist or social justice online spaces. It's not hypothetical sadly. Which may explain some of the anger here.

[Aliasnumberone]

Can I just say thank you, I have thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread.

I too reject the imposition of an unsanctioned label, and through reading this I have a better understanding of why.

Soren if you're still about, I think it is admirable to want to walk through the world cherishing the people around you and not wanting to inflict any harm on anyone, but it is literally impossible. What seems to happen is that the people who feel the need to make it a goal in life to do so end up accomodating the most vulnerable people in society's feelings. (Which is fine in itself) However... most vulnerable people are the most open to manipulation and control by power seekers and I do feel that every 'movement' for want of a better word at some point goes through a growth period where narcissists become spokespeople for the vulnerable and oppressed and make it about themselves and their personal quest to 'win' and become dominant by proving a point or forcing a change. By acquiescing to and supporting these people (not the oppressed or vulnerable) then you are actually causing much greater harm to society in general. There is a need to be more critical and listen to every voice even those in argument, even those who are accused of being privileged. I hate the whole tone policing argument and crying white tears arguments that are used to shut down debates in social justice realms, it's all a bit tit for tat and if we're not careful before we know it there'll be calls of 'crying cis tears' to close down women's voices in feminist debates about feminist issues.

I actually wanted to raise the whole transracial issue as well as a comparison but that's already been done with reference to Rachel dolezal , though I'm not sure we've discussed the binary aspect of that... As far as my experience of social justice goes it is very binary, you're either a POC or your white, I cannot imagine anyone who I've ever come across from a social justice activism background being even remotely prepared to called themselves cis POC or cis white.

I'm utterly open to be educated here so please do. I've found this all fascinating

[MysteriesOfTheOrganism]

This all comes down to an issue of political correctness, defined by Oxford Dictionaries as "the avoidance of forms of expression or action that are perceived to exclude, marginalize, or insult groups of people who are socially disadvantaged or discriminated against".

Note the use of the word "perceived". The question is, whose perception counts? If a person feels offended, then we have to accept that they feel offended. But do we have to then modify our behaviour or language according to their wishes? Have we no say in the matter? Who is the ultimate arbiter?

[venusinscorpio]

Great post Nutella.

I personally think people are so insistent on using it as they either actively like trampling over women's boundaries, or they support other people to do so in the name of "equality" because they're silly virtue-signallers who haven't given it much thought. I've never come across an argument as to why women should be labelled cis against their wishes and should cheerfully accept it that didn't boil down to "but you should just be niiiiiiice because they have it harder".

Firstly, I think that's entirely arguable. I don't accept "cis-privilege" as a meaningful concept in and of itself. Secondly, "cis" is in no way a neutral term so please do fuck off with it.

[ApplesinmyPocket]

"Am perfectly happy with the term "cis" for myself, don't really get what the fuss is about?"

If you don't 'get what the fuss is about' there's always the option of reading around the subject with the aim of establishing what the issues are; and why, while you are 'perfectly happy with the term', others might not be? After all, most people do have a reason for taking a stance, even if you end up not agreeing with it.

[Mycraneisfixed]

What a silly word

[ErrolTheDragon]

There are black people who are happy with the n-word for themselves.

If I don't get something that other people are upset about, I try not to make the assumption that there is nothing to be got.

[BeyondBeyondBeyondBeyondBeyond]

You didn't read the thread then, golden?

[TheGoldenApplesOfTheSun]

Am perfectly happy with the term "cis" for myself, don't really get what the fuss is about? Certainly don't think it should be banned from Mumsnet what an odd idea.

[NutellaLawson]

contradicted myself above. I don't get the frothing rage at the term cis, but it makes me uncomfortable. That's what I meant.

[NutellaLawson]

I don't understand the controversy.

If a group of people object to a term used to describe them, then DO NOT USE IT.

There is very little point in telling them that they shouldn't find a term offensive because you think it's neutral.

As an example, the word Negro (and it's even uglier cousin) mean simply black. A completely neutral term, merely a description, right? WRONG! people to whom that label was once applied find it offensive and so it should never be used.

I personally find cis offensive because to me it feels like I am being pushed out of my own gender category. The term cis is not even neutral. It is a prefix chosen because it is the opposite of trans. As if trans were the original and cis is its opposite. I am NOT the opposite of a transgender woman. I am a woman in my own right and not relational to a transwoman.

I wouldn't go so far as to find cis offensive, but I don't like it used on me, because how it 'others' me - a feeling transwomen and transmen ought to be a whole lot more sensitive to than most. Surely we need to find something that keeps all sides comfortable with each other.

[Kr1stina]

Indeed