Banning the term "cis"

[OlennasWimple]

Apologies if this had already been done, but can MNHQ consider banning the term "cis", given how horrifically offensive so many users of MN find it?

I don't think I need to set out the background and reasoning to this request (but can do so if it would help!)

That's the logic fail with the concept because woman =/= trans woman

"If "women = "women who are transwomen and women who are not transwomen""

It's not, though.

Which part of woman = adult human FEMALE do you not understand?

Surely there's just women and people in the process of becoming women

Ie you either are a woman or you are not but sometimes you can be changing into one

I'd love to see a bunch of straight men debate being called cismen

Males can't become females so no, trans women are never the same as women

This can be a concrete issue. Doesn't the problem come from trying to come up with a general rule? No one else can tell me what I call myself. I can't make anyone else call themselves something. I have opinions on things. You have opinions on things. I know this is more of an issue, but it's the same as any time on here people get excited about defining "right" and "wrong" behaviour in other ways.

I think it's a separate issue when this notion of who identifies as what and how people refer to themselves detracts from people's rights and safety. To misquote Eli Weisel who sadly died this week, at the moment a person is being degraded, dehumanised, hurt, you drop your opinions and step in and step up. It's about respect, but respect can't be demanded to come in the package you prefer.

Cote - we cross-posted there. Your logic is perfect.

If you believe that trans women are not women then there is no need for a special word for non-trans women.

If you believe that trans women are women then there needs to be a word for "non-trans women", to distinguish from "women, trans and non-trans".

I still think it does.

If you need a prefix to denote 'not born as a woman' or 'born as a woman', you essentially take all individual and innate meaning from the stem 'woman'. Of course, I suspect that's not a problem for some people.

Look at it like an equation to simplify:

Woman = Woman who is not a transwoman.

It's easy - you need to get rid of the subtraction ('is not') and the additional (trans) on the left hand side of the equation, and then you have:

Woman = Woman.

Which makes obviously more sense than having the extraneous information just to assert that a thing is what it is.

It depends entirely on whether you thing that transwomen is "a different thing to women" or "a subcategory of women"

It all boils down to whether you think there is a difference between feeling like and being.

I feel like a cat, purr, lick my arms, undergo facial surgery to slant my eyes, implant whiskers by my nose. Am I now a cat?

I feel black, darken my face & body with makeup, listen to & sing black music, participate in black organizations, undergo surgery to change my facial features. Am I now black?

Imo to be a woman you need to be both female and perceived as female by the world. That is what makes a person a woman.
Trans women may fulfil the second criteria (rarely, but occasionally) which definitely confers some experience of womanhood but without being female they cannot enter the category woman.
Most trans women aren't perceived as female by the world. They are certainly mistreated and abused as a class but this is because of homophobia as they are perceived as feminine men. This is not misogyny. They are not experiencing female oppression. That does not confer an experience of womanhood.

I think a transwoman is probably a category of its own. It makes obvious sense for someone who belongs in that category occasionally to find the term 'woman' applies, the best example I can think of being 'women's clothing'. But not 'women's changing rooms', 'women's health', 'women's reproductive systems', 'women's refuge', 'women prime ministers', 'women in sport'.....

LadyStark Besides from the last bit, I hear you. Having pushed upon you all these stereotypes and expectations and ways you must act is sh*t. But transwomen have had that as well. They have been taught to be tough, to be dominant, strong, not show emotions bla bla bla, but they are not that, they don't want to be read as a man (the gender identity, not the biology) they don't want all those expectaions either, so I think that's equally as damaging.

Maybe some transwomen should stay men but take the much braver step of coming out as feminists!

I understand that sorena, that's probably the dominant reason why most trans women want to transition (rejection of masculine gender expectations) but it doesn't mean they haven't been socialised as boys and then men. Rejecting social behaviour norms isn't the same as being impervious to socialisation which as I said before happens as soon as the sex is observed, even in utero.
Brain development takes place from birth with the most significant period being early childhood, before children understand that they have gendered expectations put on them.

I reject gendered behaviour expectations to a degree but equally I see myself acting out 'woman' behaviour all the time. I might not like it but it's deeply ingrained. So do you I imagine - on the days when you 'feel like a woman' you're probably acting out gendered behaviour that doesn't bother you as much as other gendered behaviour might.

Transwomen "have been taught to be tough, to be dominant, strong, not show emotions bla bla bla, but they are not that, they don't want to be read as a man."

But you're implying there that that stereotype is only a problem for transwomen, and that 'cis-men' are all those things naturally rather than having them externally imposed. Can't you see that's problematic?

Cis is not just a women thing, it's a men's thing as well. Not just ciswomen, but cismen.

Is the problem with ciswoman that you feel like people would apply stereotypes/expectations etc to you that you are not comfortable with?

Also if you don't want transwomen in women's bathroom, do you want transmen who are biologically female in your bathroom? This way you are exactly letting men into your bathrooms.

Rose Absolutely, that is problematic. I mean, I'm super gender neutral and I am going to raise my children in a gender neutral way. It's damaging for people of all genders. But presumably cismen are more comfortable with traditionally mens thing, whereas transwoman are not. I think it's more damaging for transwoman to be raised as boys than it is for cismen to be raised as boys.

Maybe if tw 'don't want to be read as men' they could start by not imposing themselves on women? They could stop trying to get into areas that are segregated by sex and stop trying to rename us as cis. These behaviours just REEK of male entitlement and ensure that they definitely don't pass. Women can see this. We're not stupid.

Trans men never pass so I have no problem with them sharing a bathroom with me.

" I mean, I'm super gender neutral and I am going to raise my children in a gender neutral way" How's that going so far?

Sorena
Is the problem with ciswoman that you feel like people would apply stereotypes/expectations etc to you that you are not comfortable with?

Are you actually reading the thread or are you trying to be a goady fucker?

I am going to raise my children in a gender neutral way.

The clue is in "going to".

MsKite how often has there been transwomen attacking women in restrooms? Big fat Zero. That's it. It has never happened. How often has transwomen been physically assaulted in restrooms? Quite a few.

You're exactly gonna get men in your restrooms, if it goes by sex, as transmen are a thing.

I don't know if I am allowed to link (sorry if I'm not) but twitter(.)com /michaelhughes1 /status /575659231841378304/photo /1?refsrc=twsrc^tfw

This is the kind you would get in your restrooms.