Trans people being allowed to compete against women in the Olympics

[OhShutUpThomas]

The Olympics are now allowing men who have taken hormones for 12 months compete against women.

It is NOT transphobic to say that this is grossly unfair and a huge violation of women's rights.

Women who have trained all their lives cannot be expected to compete against people with male bodies and who will be allowed roughly 4 times the normal female testosterone levels.

It's not on. We can't stand for it.

Please get behind this mumsnet. Someone needs to take a stand.

It's NOT transphobic to state that this is unfair. It really isn't.

Fas, your viewpoint is quite clear when you are (alongside all of these disengenuous 'i just want to co-exist' posts) arguing that you dont understand why lesbians would not want to have sex with transwomen on the aibu thread

presumably lesbians wouldn't mind having sex with a transwoman if it didn't involve the penis in any way? Not all sex is PIV....

I'm on the fence with this one I'm afraid.
We hear every year how women should receive the same pay as men for playing 3 sets of tennis to the mens 5 sets, because we are equal.
If we are equal then we should all play together with the same rules?

Women's and men's bodies are different though, and in general men are much more physically strong, they would surely beat all the women under the same conditions.

Hence, on the fence.

Of course icebeing, i did not mean piv only (and wouldnt be expecting lesbians to have piv anyway!). I meant if they dont find bepenised people attractive.

Its the agender, gender queer and non binary people i feel sorry for.
Where do they compete if its split by gender?

Did someone really just say that lesbians should be fine with having sex with someone that has a penis if the penis isn't involved? Lesbians like women, women do not have penises ergo lesbians do not want to have sex with people who have penises.

Queen, apparently this is really difficult to understand

are we expecting a huge hoard of hormonised men taking over women's olimpic events now then? maybe I'm wrong .. but I do feel this is being blown out of proportion.

At 33 I feel I'm too young to be saying this, but the worlds gone mad.

I'm with you there Queen and I'm 27!

Claufia, it doesn't have to be a "horde" - if a highly athletic, near the top of the male bell curve, man takes hormones, it's very likely that person will medal in the women's event. A new record may even be set that a biological woman will never beat - no woman has ever run below 10.49s in the 100m but hundreds of men have.

Claudia - plenty of men would not have to do anything other than have blood tests to prove their testosterone is below the limit. The limit set is above the level where the NHS will treat for low testosterone.

The whole point of sport is that the winners dominate, they are top of mind. Pendleton, Hoy, Radcliffe, Farah, Murray, Williams - all famous for being winners. If the fastest and strongest entrants are trans women, it doesn't matter if the other 39 participants are born women - trans women will dominate.

maybe it will fizzle out after a while, we'll see a few examples but then things will go back to normal it's very easy to get irate and annoyed though yeah

part of me feels that if these individuals really wanted to be seen or treated as women they wouldn't be putting themselves in the spot light like this but then on the other hand I do also wonder if they genuinely feel in the wrong body

"I think the author of the article makes an interesting point."

Interesting point? He makes the shockingly biased and false suggestion that the differences between men and women in terms of physical strength, endurance, and other physical characteristics are merely "societal belief" and "persistent assumption".

They are not. These are measurable (and measured) differences between men & women like platelet count, heart size, lung size and capacity, hand size, feet size, bone density, muscle mass etc.

"If elite sporting events weren't segregated according to sex, would women's performances and results be exactly the same? I'm inclined to think they wouldn't."

I agree. If you agree to call "women" any male who says they are women, those performances and results would of course not be the same. New "women's" records will be much closer to men's. Wonder why.

queen I absolutely did not say should. Nobody should be fine with having sex with anyone. I was just pointing out that finding a transwoman with a penis sexually attractive presumably isn't impossible for lesbians on the basis that the penis doesn't have to be involved in sex.

There is a difference between saying it isn't fair to dislike me just because I have a penis and saying it isn't fair to dislike me just because I want you to have sex with me in a way you don't want to. The second is monstrous...the first I can find some sympathy with in a people first genitals later sort of a way.

"presumably lesbians wouldn't mind having sex with a transwoman if it didn't involve the penis in any way?"

How is that not assuming that lesbians should be fine with having sex with someone with a penis?

"maybe it will fizzle out after a while, we'll see a few examples but then things will go back to normal it's very easy to get irate and annoyed though yeah"

How will things "go back to normal" if records have been set that no born woman could ever beat?

Newlife the argument for equal pay is not linked to strength. It is for the best at their sport to be paid equally. The best man and the best woman should receive the same prize.
Men are as a group stronger than women. Let me think about jockeys. You need to be strong and light to be an elite jockey. Men resisted women becoming jockeys, but there are still more male jockeys than females. Despite more girls being equestrian than boys.

Athletics is going to be mans and a sham.

I don't think it's impossible for a lesbian or a straight man to find a trans woman attractive, no.

That's a heck of a long way from saying "presumably" lesbians (in general) "wouldn't mind" having sex with a trans woman!

(Off topic, but we like to aspire to enthusiastic consent round here, not "wouldn't mind")

"There is a difference between saying it isn't fair to dislike me just because I have a penis "

Err, straight men go around all the time not fancying other men because penis - are they also being unfair?

DrSeuss aren't many of those records already unbeatable?? I mean I remember Flo-Jo's records that was a long time ago and aren't there also some East German records

You don't like my example? Pick another example.

Ok i will try. Wish i had track changes on my phone.

Embedded in the fair play discourse is the persistent assumption that all males (born) have a physical advantage over all females (born). (My corrections)(or did author mean 'all men, biological males/transmen/intersex' have an advantage over biological females? There might be more proof of that view, with attitudes to intersex competitors)

i dont think any academic would use 'all' without their supervisor jumping down their throat, but at least uses biological terms for biological sex (male/female). I have removed the reference to trans (evidence for this?)The 'all' is crying out for a 'really?? Proof please' comment. I can imagine 'some'

Within the context of sport, it is clear that there is a strong, prevalent societal belief in the superiority of hegemonic masculinity (Cavanaugh & Sykes, 2006).

(Cavanagh?) What is this and how does it relate to male and female? Is this from the article about how muscles are masculine therefore should really be on men and we are all afraid of dying? Perhaps i read the wrong article. Isnt this phrase usually used in reference to Connell? Is it used by c and s (2006?)

Within gender policy, it is further assumed that some birth males would be driven to change their gender to participate in women’s sports to reap the benefits of inevitable success. Ironically, the creation of a system that provides a place and protection for girls and women to compete in sport is also the same system that necessitates their competitive inferiority (Wackwitz, 2003)."

Are those two sentences in any way related? How does men changing gender to cheat the system (alleged gender policy) related to hegemonic masculinity? Quite possibly it is related but i dont understand how.

Moving on to wackwitz, who also states
"Sex testing is the means through which the assumption of this binary sex–gender system is both enforced and made visible to observers. The three terms “sex testing”, “gender verification,” and “femininity testing” are used nearly interchangeably by Olympic officials, athletes, and reporters for the popular press. The constellation of these three terms suggests the inseparability of sex from gender and of sex and gender from femininity." (Now thats a point to explore) , that last sentence does seem to be a reasonable account of her article. That quote begins
"These divisions are simultaneously helpful and damaging to those identified as women. They are helpful to women in that these two categories, being consistent with most of the sex–gender systems currently encountered by women across the globe, enable groups of people to compete against others who have suffered under regimes that tend to discourage athleticism among women. Unfortunately, however, this advantage is only advantageous because, for the most part, binary sex–gender systems require that women maintain a lesser status than men—both in and out of competition. " Her view would appear to point more towards all humans competing in the same races?